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Old 12-08-2010, 02:44 PM   #2176
BriMc
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

I know its been said before, but I just want to say it again.

The 9/10 difference mainly effects the limit game, so why not make all the and NL/PL games 9 handed, and leave the Limit Games 10 handed?

Last edited by BriMc; 12-08-2010 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:53 PM   #2177
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by sling7 View Post
The rake is high on my list when selecting games to play. It is the reason I will not play 2-4, 3-6, or 4-8 limit or 1-2 NL. 10 handed vs 9 handed is a 10% difference, that is not trivial. 9 handed will not change the dynamic of the game and it will be the same players, they will just be paying more rake. Although they might have more leg room.
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Originally Posted by sling7 View Post

If the room expands to 60 table it will rarely be full and 9 handed games will mean more rake collected. In time games it will mean less rake collected, but they are a small percentage of the games.
So you don't even play the games that would be most effected by the switch from 10 to 9 handed. Of the games currently spread at Parx, you would play 3 that are timed (15-30, 8-16, 5-10NL) and 2 that are raked (2/5 NL and 1-2 PLO). I don't see where your issue is.
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:38 PM   #2178
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by BriMc View Post
So you don't even play the games that would be most effected by the switch from 10 to 9 handed. Of the games currently spread at Parx, you would play 3 that are timed (15-30, 8-16, 5-10NL) and 2 that are raked (2/5 NL and 1-2 PLO). I don't see where your issue is.
A switch to 9 handed will affect every game. Besides the rake difference, games will more often be short handed due to walkers. Short handed games are generally tougher games with higher varience. They can be better games, depending on who is playing. In my expereince, which includes many hours of shorthanded play both live and online, full games are more profitable.
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Old 12-08-2010, 04:13 PM   #2179
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

it's honestly almost painful to read extensive mathematical arguments with incomplete arguments on here. this guy dinish is the only one who seems to get it. more rake doesn't mean YOU are losing money. the increase in expected rake is EXACTLY proportionate the increase you should earn by having less people playing against you. you don't pay a rake just for sitting there. you are only concerned with the hands you win. and its 10% up to 5 dollars; whether you're 10 handed, 9 handed, or heads up. you "should" be able to win more often with less people. the percentages are the same. just as they are the same for whether than 10th chair will seat a fish or seat a reg.
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Old 12-08-2010, 04:26 PM   #2180
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by 85chickasaw View Post
it's honestly almost painful to read extensive mathematical arguments with incomplete arguments on here. this guy dinish is the only one who seems to get it. more rake doesn't mean YOU are losing money. the increase in expected rake is EXACTLY proportionate the increase you should earn by having less people playing against you. you don't pay a rake just for sitting there. you are only concerned with the hands you win. and its 10% up to 5 dollars; whether you're 10 handed, 9 handed, or heads up. you "should" be able to win more often with less people. the percentages are the same. just as they are the same for whether than 10th chair will seat a fish or seat a reg.

This is a good point. Plus the extra 4 tables means more cost for the casinos too. I think 9 for NL games are fine. Just make it 10 when waiting list start growing.
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Old 12-08-2010, 04:50 PM   #2181
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Just make it 10 when waiting list start growing.
The waiting lists will almost never grow beyond 8 as the room will have ready empty tables pretty much 24/7.
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Old 12-08-2010, 05:08 PM   #2182
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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The waiting lists will almost never grow beyond 8 as the room will have ready empty tables pretty much 24/7.
Do you think this will happen at 46 tables, or not until they get the full 60+ open.
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Old 12-08-2010, 05:18 PM   #2183
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Do you think this will happen at 46 tables, or not until they get the full 60+ open.
SMTWT won't cap it, Fri or Sat may at 45 till 61 imho.
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Old 12-08-2010, 05:32 PM   #2184
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by 85chickasaw View Post
it's honestly almost painful to read extensive mathematical arguments with incomplete arguments on here. this guy dinish is the only one who seems to get it. more rake doesn't mean YOU are losing money. the increase in expected rake is EXACTLY proportionate the increase you should earn by having less people playing against you. you don't pay a rake just for sitting there. you are only concerned with the hands you win. and its 10% up to 5 dollars; whether you're 10 handed, 9 handed, or heads up. you "should" be able to win more often with less people. the percentages are the same. just as they are the same for whether than 10th chair will seat a fish or seat a reg.
No disrespect, but you clearly do not understand this topic.

Concern is not for the hands you win. It's around the percentages of times you can profitably play hands that have the best chance to win the most money.

Winning more often is irrelevant. Winning more money is the fundamental discussion.
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Old 12-08-2010, 05:35 PM   #2185
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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No disrespect, but you clearly do not understand this topic.

Concern is not for the hands you win. It's around the percentages of times you can profitably play hands that have the best chance to win the most money.

Winning more often is irrelevant. Winning more money is the fundamental discussion.
There seems to be two discussions going on. You are discussing personal profitability, but I think others are musing on the long term harm of having more rake come out of the player pool. Which is of course a subset of your topic but so distanced that it could be said to be another topic.

Henceforth referred to as Protocol A & Protocol B!
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Old 12-08-2010, 05:51 PM   #2186
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by IFSATG View Post
No disrespect, but you clearly do not understand this topic.

Concern is not for the hands you win. It's around the percentages of times you can profitably play hands that have the best chance to win the most money.

Winning more often is irrelevant. Winning more money is the fundamental discussion.
no disrespect taken, i criticized an argument, only fair to be criticized back. i did put too much emphasis on the percentages and basically made two arguments.

one against the rakes going up being bad for players and the other about what you should be concerned with. if the house makes more rake going 9 handed, it's not detrimental to you. they're making more money because more hands are being dealt per player. and you should be winning more hands per player. proportionately.

to your point, what you should be concerned with regarding the rake is with the pots you win. how much are you losing to rake on your winnings specifically. and the rake is still 10% up to 5 dollars. unless you think pots will be smaller, it makes no difference how many are playing. you're losing that amount to the rake.
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Old 12-08-2010, 05:53 PM   #2187
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

i think grim horse gets what i'm saying. sorry for being confusing... and condescending in my original post. i hate that needless attitude thrown in when i read posts and i shouldn't have added it to mine.
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Old 12-08-2010, 06:15 PM   #2188
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by 85chickasaw View Post
no disrespect taken, i criticized an argument, only fair to be criticized back. i did put too much emphasis on the percentages and basically made two arguments.

one against the rakes going up being bad for players and the other about what you should be concerned with. if the house makes more rake going 9 handed, it's not detrimental to you. they're making more money because more hands are being dealt per player. and you should be winning more hands per player. proportionately.

to your point, what you should be concerned with regarding the rake is with the pots you win. how much are you losing to rake on your winnings specifically. and the rake is still 10% up to 5 dollars. unless you think pots will be smaller, it makes no difference how many are playing. you're losing that amount to the rake.
You're almost there... I'm looking at it from the ability to play a balanced game, where maximum profit potential can be realized. Almost invariably, they are gonna suck $5 of the pot. So, you're right there.

If/when the game gets shorter than 7 or so (more likely with 9 starters, than with 10), the hands that make us the most money become unplayable.

Even if they DROPPED the rake, it wouldn't make up for not being able to play those hands.

The essence of my argument is around losing that ability. I'm saying that we, as players, should be more concerned with that part of the equation, since it is much more significant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 85chickasaw View Post
i think grim horse gets what i'm saying. sorry for being confusing... and condescending in my original post. i hate that needless attitude thrown in when i read posts and i shouldn't have added it to mine.
I didn't take your post as condescending at all. Hence my "no disrespect, but..." prelude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim Horse View Post
There seems to be two discussions going on. You are discussing personal profitability, but I think others are musing on the long term harm of having more rake come out of the player pool. Which is of course a subset of your topic but so distanced that it could be said to be another topic.

Henceforth referred to as Protocol A & Protocol B!
LOL... Excellent - you made my day. I laughed so hard, I forgot which Protocol that I was arguing

I get it - but, in the big scheme of things, the rake contribution to the equation is very diminutive, in comparison. I'm not convinced that the player pool factors (or should factor) into things.

Then again, I'm starting to get confused <sigh>

I think I'll go eat and drop by later for a few hands. See ya there maybe!
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Old 12-08-2010, 06:29 PM   #2189
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Ok I was bored so I checked into it. I dont use public transportation but I think this would make sense.

For those interested, you can take the Trenton Regional line to the Tacony Station. Bus Route 84 connects with this station. You can take that route to the Franklin Mills Mall(by the Marshall's). Then Bus Route 50 picks up at the same stop and takes you straight to Parx.

This is the link for the train:
http://www.septa.org/schedules/rail/w/TRE_0.html

This is the link for the train station:
http://www.septa.org/stations/rail/tacony.html

This is the link for Route 84:
http://www.septa.org/schedules/bus/w/084_0.htm

This is the link for Route 50:
http://www.septa.org/schedules/bus/w/050_0.htm
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Old 12-08-2010, 07:12 PM   #2190
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Can some one post the link for the games running. I can't find it
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Old 12-08-2010, 07:17 PM   #2191
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Can some one post the link for the games running. I can't find it
http://i.parxcasino.com/#livegamereport

# $4-8 Limit Hold'em 2
# $8-16 Limit Hold'em 1
# $15-30 Limit Hold'em 1
# $1-2 No Limit Hold'em 10
# $2-5 No Limit Hold'em 3
# $5-10 No Limit Hold'em 1
# $4-8 Omaha HI/LO 1
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Old 12-08-2010, 07:18 PM   #2192
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

ty sir. Forgot to save to my phone
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Old 12-08-2010, 07:21 PM   #2193
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

What days does that woman in the backround play? Id like to give her a tip............................................... .................................................. .on how to look at her cards of course
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Old 12-08-2010, 09:19 PM   #2194
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Not really news to us, but I just got an email from Parx:

Title: "parx east opening soon - details inside!"
Quote:
parx east
opening december 22, 2010*

action packed gaming
poker - blackjack - craps - roulette
baccarat - pai-gow - sib-bo

[some other crap about bar specials, noodle bar, sports tv]

*pending pgcb approval
So, essentially confirms Dec 22 as the expansion date (pending pgcb approval), which we probably all knew already. Also looks like an enticing array of table games, or something.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:34 PM   #2195
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by 85chickasaw View Post
to your point, what you should be concerned with regarding the rake is with the pots you win. how much are you losing to rake on your winnings specifically.
Yes, that is one consideration. However:

Quote:
and the rake is still 10% up to 5 dollars. unless you think pots will be smaller, it makes no difference how many are playing. you're losing that amount to the rake.
It's the amount of rake LEAVING the TABLE, for ALL players, that has to be focused on as well. If the rake were 15% up to $10, would you just be concerned about your own results?
If most casual players are good for 3-4 buyins, it may not be as "important".... but I don't know if that's true.

I believe that this is even more important for big-bet games, where you can win a shrinking stack faster, than limit... but maybe not.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:47 PM   #2196
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim Horse View Post
http://i.parxcasino.com/#livegamereport

# $4-8 Limit Hold'em 2
# $8-16 Limit Hold'em 1
# $15-30 Limit Hold'em 1
# $1-2 No Limit Hold'em 10
# $2-5 No Limit Hold'em 3
# $5-10 No Limit Hold'em 1
# $4-8 Omaha HI/LO 1
that link brings me to the parx casino main page. Anyone else having that problem?

Just found out I live ~25 minutes from here so I'll be coming to check it out soon.
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Old 12-08-2010, 11:17 PM   #2197
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Use this link
http://i.parxcasino.com/gamereport.php
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Old 12-08-2010, 11:22 PM   #2198
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Let's take a look at the situation, from a different perspective... again, applicable to limit games.

Forget rake, think time. You're paying $5/down (for example). In a 10 handed game, that's $100/hour down the hole. In a 9 handed game, it's $90. Delta = $10/hr. Still with me?

On the surface, it looks like there is $10 hour remaining on the table. But, what is your equity? Pretty small, regardless.

Now, this 9 handed table gets a couple walkers, so you're down to 7 handed. Do you think that the value of drawing hands goes up, or down? Will you still play 87s or 98s when you can be pretty sure that you will not get 5+ callers out of a field of 7? Are you going to play the little pairs, set mining? You might, but you'd be an idiot.

So, now your range of playable hands goes dramatically down and many of the hands that get eliminated are those hands that, when they win, win the most money.

It's not about the rake - honest. Yea, sure there is some contribution there. But, the real issue is not the rake.

In any case, this is most likely moot. I was speaking with Ari earlier this evening and I am pretty sure that they are going 9-handed, at expansion. I don't like it, but (not that I have a choice) I'll give it a shot and see how it works out.

Back to the discussions about smoking, waitress's and parking
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Old 12-08-2010, 11:34 PM   #2199
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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that works. thanks.
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Old 12-09-2010, 12:30 AM   #2200
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

I'm making my first PARX trip tomorrow evening. How often does PLO go on a week night/Thursday night? I saw from the latest game report above that it's running tonight....is that normal?....as in, there's a good chance it will go tomorrow night as well?

Thanks for the info and I look forward to checking out the room tomorrow night.

PS. I'm hoping acdawg is in the PLO game if it's running. I'm not saying he's a fish at all..... I just always run hotter than the sun when he's in my PLO game.
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