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Old 02-25-2013, 01:41 PM   #8426
ashinynickel
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:49 PM   #8427
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

I hold action until chips arrive in large pots. I've done this in the past, and will continue to do so going forward.

It's also a good idea to ask the dealer to "make the pot right" by pulling in all the chips in all-in situations if you suspect shadiness or don't know your opponent. I don't know PA law, but there are stories in NJ about guys calling all-ins, losing, and then refusing to pay.

Everything is a "gentleman's agreement" until chips go in the middle.

Obviously I don't hold up action over $40 or against regs whom I trust.

Last edited by cl0r0x70; 02-25-2013 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:20 PM   #8428
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

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Originally Posted by ashinynickel View Post
Yes. I was at the table when this incident happened. Basically a player doubled up another player and was left with $800 in chips and had "$2k behind" which dealer announced.

He got his chips all in pre flop the very next hand before the $2k came and lost. The player he was all in against as well as the rest of the table thought he was all in for $2800. He claimed he was only all in for $800. The floor rules with him as only chips on the table are in play. When a dealer or floor says "$X in chips behind" it is only a gentleman's agreement.
Unreal, but I guess I see how it has to be this way. Thanks for sharing, it's good to know. This seems bad enough to warrant changing the rules to prohibit playing behind IMO... I realize how much that sucks, but having any aspect of the rules of the game involve a gentleman's agreement seems insane to me.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:30 AM   #8429
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

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Originally Posted by ashinynickel View Post
Yes. I was at the table when this incident happened. Basically a player doubled up another player and was left with $800 in chips and had "$2k behind" which dealer announced.

He got his chips all in pre flop the very next hand before the $2k came and lost. The player he was all in against as well as the rest of the table thought he was all in for $2800. He claimed he was only all in for $800. The floor rules with him as only chips on the table are in play. When a dealer or floor says "$X in chips behind" it is only a gentleman's agreement.
not sure what this means. Did he have 2k in racks that where not in play? How can he have 2800 on table and not have it in play? Only way I could see is that he can buy in for1k so if he didn't win that additional 2k shouldn't be in play unless I am missing something.

I lost a hand rebought for 500 which would have given me 1100 dealer told me 100 had to be put away.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:34 AM   #8430
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

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Unreal, but I guess I see how it has to be this way. Thanks for sharing, it's good to know. This seems bad enough to warrant changing the rules to prohibit playing behind IMO... I realize how much that sucks, but having any aspect of the rules of the game involve a gentleman's agreement seems insane to me.
It is already against the rules to play behind. To be clear: there is no "playing behind" at Parx. Chips need to be on the table at the beginning of the hand to be in play during the hand, if you want Parx to enforce it.

The players in this game are experienced and largely know each other from game to game, and they have decided that they wanted to use their familiarity with each other to simulate "playing behind" as a gentleman's agreement (I guess, I don't play in this game, I had no idea they were doing this before) to make their own lives easier. Unfortunately, this is one of the drawbacks - the agreement only goes as far as you can trust the other parties.

[It's the same for those of us who use a "rock" in the limit games. It's a "mandatory" straddle if you have it and are UTG, but if a player decides they don't want to do it, there is nothing Parx can or will do to enforce it.]

As an aside, from reading through the PGC submissions, Parx has asked for $100s to be allowed to play, but PA has not approved it yet (and has shown no signs that they might).

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not sure what this means. Did he have 2k in racks that where not in play?
It means he had given $2000 in cash (or possibly large denom chips) to the floor or a chip runner, but the chips had not yet been delivered to the table by the time the hand began. In some casinos, this is called "playing behind" - all parties act as if they chips have been delivered, and once they arrive, if any are owed to other players it is settled up at that time. Parx does not allow this, the players in this game figured out how to simulate it, but Parx will not enforce it.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:21 AM   #8431
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

I thought it was a 2 5 nl table must have been a higher table stakes. Why would the dealer even say 2k behind if Parx doesn't allow it? Player who lost knew the rule and decided not to pay basically freerolling? Players should have asked him If all in meant the 2k behind , guess they will know for next time. If player had said he was all in for the 2800 could he still have called floor and have the 2k called off?
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:56 AM   #8432
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

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I thought it was a 2 5 nl table must have been a higher table stakes. Why would the dealer even say 2k behind if Parx doesn't allow it? Player who lost knew the rule and decided not to pay basically freerolling? Players should have asked him If all in meant the 2k behind , guess they will know for next time. If player had said he was all in for the 2800 could he still have called floor and have the 2k called off?
The OP said it was 10-10.

I don't know why the dealer said that. He probably shouldn't have, since Parx doesn't allow it. But in his defense, in the nosebleed games, the players generally prefer that the dealers/floors let them run the game and not interject themselves into the flow of the game to strictly enforce things (with the unfortunate side effect being that, if they ever need to call the floor over for a ruling, it often has to be made in accordance with the actual rules, not the rules the players have been using). And it sounds like this "playing behind" idea has been going on for a while in that game.

Unclear what would have happened if the player agreed it was for all 2800, then later called the floor to claim the 2k didn't count. Based on room rules and PA regs, one would guess they would rule exactly as they did in this case, saying that the cash can't play because PA doesn't allow cash to play and Parx doesn't allow paying behind. Maybe give the angle shooter a temp or perm ban as a parting gift. But it's really a theoretical exercise (until it happens), the ruling could probably go either way.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:22 AM   #8433
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

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It is already against the rules to play behind. To be clear: there is no "playing behind" at Parx. Chips need to be on the table at the beginning of the hand to be in play during the hand, if you want Parx to enforce it.
Thanks dinesh, that makes sense. I would have never guessed it, though, given that, in my experience, the dealers in the 10/10 game have always verbally facilitated playing behind without hesitation or inquiry to the other players.

The dealers probably need to just start enforcing this strictly, which will be a pain for the true "gentlemen" in the game, as it were. If enough such gentlemen keep enough extra big chips in their pocket to always be able to sell out to players who need rebuys, that seems like the best solution until cash can play?
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:31 AM   #8434
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

It is the best solution but some of us just don't do it for a multitude of reasons. Mine is that I just forget. Others probably can't trust themselves with those chips, especially if they were the type to not buy in for the max.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:39 PM   #8435
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

Any info on the bigger mixed games I'm seeing on bravo? (100/200 HOSE, 75/150 HOE)
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:05 PM   #8436
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

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Any info on the bigger mixed games I'm seeing on bravo? (100/200 HOSE, 75/150 HOE)
Don't have any specific info for you but as I understand it Tuesday is the popular day at Parx for games like this for whatever reason.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:11 PM   #8437
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

Quote:
Originally Posted by cl0r0x70 View Post
I hold action until chips arrive in large pots. I've done this in the past, and will continue to do so going forward.

It's also a good idea to ask the dealer to "make the pot right" by pulling in all the chips in all-in situations if you suspect shadiness or don't know your opponent. I don't know PA law, but there are stories in NJ about guys calling all-ins, losing, and then refusing to pay.

Everything is a "gentleman's agreement" until chips go in the middle.

Obviously I don't hold up action over $40 or against regs whom I trust.
On just two occasions, over the years, have I felt the need to do this. Both times, villain said "call" without touching any chips. But how to proceed? If I ask the dealer to make the pot right, it's obvious I want the call and the angle is not only not avoided... I've practically invited the villain to angle me if he wasn't already thinking that way.

I hate being in this spot. AFAIK in NJ at least there is no option except lawsuit that will get you the money if villain doesn't push it into the middle. The casino will certainly 86 the villain, but you're still out the call. IDK what the law is in PA.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:56 PM   #8438
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On just two occasions, over the years, have I felt the need to do this. Both times, villain said "call" without touching any chips. But how to proceed? If I ask the dealer to make the pot right, it's obvious I want the call and the angle is not only not avoided... I've practically invited the villain to angle me if he wasn't already thinking that way.

I hate being in this spot. AFAIK in NJ at least there is no option except lawsuit that will get you the money if villain doesn't push it into the middle. The casino will certainly 86 the villain, but you're still out the call. IDK what the law is in PA.
I've never heard of anyone jetting off in the middle of a hand after calling an all-in. But I have heard of people refusing to pay after the river is dealt.

The reason they are calling is to freeroll you after all. They want to see if they hit their flush, or otherwise legitimately have the best hand at showdown after the river.

I would love to know what Parx' (and PA law's) position is on this.
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:49 PM   #8439
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

A couple of questions about Parx.

1. Does 7 Card Stud high ever go and at what limits? (looking for a game for my 83 year old dad).

2. Is there BINGO at the casino or near the casino? (for my 2 sisters.)

3. What is the buy in for the $2/5 NL Holdem games?
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Old 02-26-2013, 11:56 PM   #8440
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As an aside, from reading through the PGC submissions, Parx has asked for $100s to be allowed to play, but PA has not approved it yet (and has shown no signs that they might).
horrible idea to let 100s play. Gives the angle shooters more options....hide the 100s. Also slows up the game as i can count your chips visually quite quickly, difficult to tell if you have 7 100 dollar bills or 20. ( or 20 or 40). So there will be lots of how much cash do you have.

When park first opened they allowed $500 chips to play in 2/5 which was ridiculous as players / angle shooters tried to hide them. I complained in this forum and in person as did others and they changed the rule.

Unless you are playing for ridiculous stakes and stacks average way over 10k per player there is no need to let cash play. If over stack way over 10k then it makes sense due to having to fill out a form for IRS.

Still do not understand difficulty of buying extra chips ( high denomination) and keep in your pocket if you plan to rebut if felted. I would never play a gentleman a agreement at a public casino that money behind plays unless it was the rule that will be enforced by the floor. Home game money behind plays, not in a public game because all it takes is 1 jerk to do what he did.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:48 AM   #8441
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

100s play in CT and it really doesn't slow down the game very much. I do prefer them not to play but it won't be a big deal if it changes.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:31 AM   #8442
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

Quote:
Originally Posted by cl0r0x70 View Post
I've never heard of anyone jetting off in the middle of a hand after calling an all-in. But I have heard of people refusing to pay after the river is dealt.

The reason they are calling is to freeroll you after all. They want to see if they hit their flush, or otherwise legitimately have the best hand at showdown after the river.

I would love to know what Parx' (and PA law's) position is on this.
cl0r0x, I know you play 10/10, so you probably havent encountered the problem, but as someone who plays more 2/5 than 10/10, I can tell you with absolute certainty that parx's position is this: if the money is not in the middle, they cannot force a player to pay up. Best they can do is summon the state police and ban the player.

With that being said, apparently it is ok to just steal chips from another player, and they will let you back in after some time has passed. I am in disbelief every time I see a certain player...he stole $700 in blacks right off another player's stack at a 2/5 game, and he was caught doing so. Yet he walks around parx like it never happened. I questioned management, and the response I got was, "it's over our heads. You need to take it up with the head of security." But I'm not sure I really want said player banned, as he is extremely good for the game, as is the rest of his clan. Just don't leave black chips on top of your stack when you go to the bathroom.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:49 AM   #8443
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

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cl0r0x, I know you play 10/10, so you probably havent encountered the problem, but as someone who plays more 2/5 than 10/10, I can tell you with absolute certainty that parx's position is this: if the money is not in the middle, they cannot force a player to pay up. Best they can do is summon the state police and ban the player.

With that being said, apparently it is ok to just steal chips from another player, and they will let you back in after some time has passed. I am in disbelief every time I see a certain player...he stole $700 in blacks right off another player's stack at a 2/5 game, and he was caught doing so. Yet he walks around parx like it never happened. I questioned management, and the response I got was, "it's over our heads. You need to take it up with the head of security." But I'm not sure I really want said player banned, as he is extremely good for the game, as is the rest of his clan. Just don't leave black chips on top of your stack when you go to the bathroom.
I've been playing a fair bit of 2/5 lately at Parx. Are you allowed to give a description of this person in here so we know who to look out for? I always put my big chips under a stack of reds or let the table know that I am picking up my big chips for security reasons and let them know how much it is and that I will be bringing it back. Would still be good to know who this is though because that is incredibly sketchy.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:06 AM   #8444
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

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horrible idea to let 100s play. Gives the angle shooters more options....hide the 100s. Also slows up the game as i can count your chips visually quite quickly, difficult to tell if you have 7 100 dollar bills or 20. ( or 20 or 40). So there will be lots of how much cash do you have.

When park first opened they allowed $500 chips to play in 2/5 which was ridiculous as players / angle shooters tried to hide them. I complained in this forum and in person as did others and they changed the rule.
IF 100s get approved, and IF Parx decides to allow them, they could of course limit their use to only games of a certain stake and above. Of course, they could also say they play everywhere. Hard to say for sure.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:51 AM   #8445
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerSki13 View Post
horrible idea to let 100s play. Gives the angle shooters more options....hide the 100s. Also slows up the game as i can count your chips visually quite quickly, difficult to tell if you have 7 100 dollar bills or 20. ( or 20 or 40). So there will be lots of how much cash do you have.

When park first opened they allowed $500 chips to play in 2/5 which was ridiculous as players / angle shooters tried to hide them. I complained in this forum and in person as did others and they changed the rule.

Unless you are playing for ridiculous stakes and stacks average way over 10k per player there is no need to let cash play. If over stack way over 10k then it makes sense due to having to fill out a form for IRS.

Still do not understand difficulty of buying extra chips ( high denomination) and keep in your pocket if you plan to rebut if felted. I would never play a gentleman a agreement at a public casino that money behind plays unless it was the rule that will be enforced by the floor. Home game money behind plays, not in a public game because all it takes is 1 jerk to do what he did.
I agree about the hiding concerns.
Quote:
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IF 100s get approved, and IF Parx decides to allow them, they could of course limit their use to only games of a certain stake and above. Of course, they could also say they play everywhere. Hard to say for sure.
Or they could even have 100s play only while waiting for a chip runner to rebuy, always accompanied by a dealer verification and acknowledgement of the amount of bills in play, i.e. the current "playing behind" window but legally enforceable. That'd sound good to me.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:58 AM   #8446
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

Quote:
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IF 100s get approved, and IF Parx decides to allow them, they could of course limit their use to only games of a certain stake and above. Of course, they could also say they play everywhere. Hard to say for sure.
the standard is 100s play when its a no-max game. so unless either 10-10 becomes no-max or it wont be approved.
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:32 PM   #8447
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

I would be fine if 100s could play only when the amount is declared by the dealer, and only for a limited time as a chip runner is called.

I bring this up from time-to-time, but all of this is solvable with California-style chip runners. Hold a fistful of 100s in the air, and you have chips in 30 seconds.

I don't know if it's a regulatory thing or what, but this is the only thing I find superior about playing on the West Coast.

Sooo many benefits: faster games, fewer tray fills, preventing the "walk of shame" as bustouts go to the cage, etc. etc. etc. and of course it dramatically mitigates these types of issues.
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Old 02-28-2013, 04:44 AM   #8448
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

Agree with above. There needs be a resolution to the "playing behind" situation.
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:24 AM   #8449
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

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Any info on the bigger mixed games I'm seeing on bravo? (100/200 HOSE, 75/150 HOE)
What do you want to know about them?
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:29 AM   #8450
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Re: Parx Casino (Bensalem, PA) -- FAQ updated 2011.09.08

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What do you want to know about them?
I also like mixed games and thinking of coming down tonight.

Does the 10/20 O/E game go or is it just 6/12?

I like 10/20 or 15/30

Also see that 8/16 Omaha H/L runs. Does 8/16 O/E ever go?

What other games go into the mix? Is it just LH? I have seen HOE running

On a different note - do the regs soft play each other heads up. I noticed this happening last time I was there but that was about 6 months ago.
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