About a 5 minute walk definitely don't need a car

If the idea is to increase the player pool for the bigger game, I'm not sure what effect this is going to have. Who are these 2-5 players that will play in a 5-10 game, but not a 10-10 game?

Just looking at the blinds, they would seem to be the same of course.

But they definitely LOOK very different to a rec player. The 10/10 game with all the stacks of peach chips just looks . . . weird. I think that's true even for 5/10 players stopping in from other NE casinos. It took me a few sessions before I natively counted my stacks in increments of 200 instead of 100, for example, and I still have to focus occasionally to keep from misreading bet sizes.

The large buyin might also be a problem. There are some nights where the average stack on the table is 4-5k. It looks more like a 10/25 game than a 5/10. I think there is an embarrassment factor to some players putting 1k on the table and feeling short stacked (even tho that's pretty ludicrous.)

I also think that the deep stacks might be breaking some of its regs who aren't rolled for a 3k game. This manifests itself with pros sitting down in a juicy game, taking one beat, and standing up. That doesn't happen as often when guys are comfortable blowing through a few bullets.

Finally, the game is freaking isolated way back in the corner. It's weird to walk back there, especially on nights when there's little other high limit action. No one likes railbirds, and there are of course security and privacy issues, but you also want people to at least check it out without feeling like they're intruding on a private game.

Just my 2 cents of course. If the game could go and stay healthy at 10/10, then great. I think it's a better short term game that way. I just don't think it's a better long term game.

Also, I'm not hearing anyone remarking on how 5/10 would be WORSE. At the very least, lower buyins keep players in action longer. The dynamic is usually: lower buyins are better for the game/house/rec players. . . bigger buyins are better for the pros (assuming player pool liquidity, which is the issue here.)

playing HOE (75/150) as of now. the game is good...

You do realize that you have to claim your cash on December 9th or 10th in the poker room in person? It's either block off one of these 2 days or lose the rakeback as per parx's website.

I see a couple big mix games going on bravo right now.. Any big names in the house?

Barry Greenstein and Matt Glantz are the biggest names.

omg the price for time in the $75 mix game is $7 per half. Borgata charges $10. i will have to discuss this with Stan, this is a huge difference.

yeah... so my thoughts feel about mid sentence. i think it would be better to either start with 5-0 as a 100BB game or 1/2-1/3 as a deep game. 5-0 as a 200BB max buy-in, can effectively change the game to 5-10. With enough deep stacks the game will have a regular straddle and bam, 5-10 PLO. I think that's what ruins the action, most people in that game suck at understanding the variance of the game and think that stacking off 200BB 5 times is something abnormal. so people go broke and blah blah blah, game breaks.

They apparently tried to start a 5/10nl game this morning but it's not in the system.

A reg reminded me that it is really bad to talk at the table about how sparse the games are or have been. Makes it less likely that the players there will come back in the near future.

While sparse, it's important to note that the games have been good. Sometimes, very very good.

Frankly, that's what has me confused. Good games should rarely have trouble going and staying full.

I agree with a lot of the things said here. It's definitely psychological and human nature that players tend shy away from foreign game dynamics such as the peach chips and larger buy-in at 300bb max. The way the game plays isn't much different from a 5-10 NL game but these small variables of unfamiliarity make the game more "intimidating" for the avg player. With that said, 10-10 NL being only spread at Parx casino may be up for debate as +/- ev.

I think the 2-5 game has a large enough pool of players to attract some of them to 5-10. The buy in amount and the use of chip denominations aren't so foreign to 2-5 and 5-10 players. This way we can merge our player pool of the two games and leave the peach chips for the 10-20 NL. This will essentially make the 5-10 better by filtering the beasts up to the 10-20 game which realistically won't run everyday but will probably run more than it ever will.

There is a huge difference between reserving a whole day to play poker and a two day window to stop in at Parx and pick up guaranteed money.

I wasnt saying otherwise. I was just making anyone aware of the rakeback policy if they didnt know it. Can you imagine the uproar if you missed the day you were to get paid bc no one told you?

You make it sound like reserving a 'whole day' to play poker is some type of hardship to anyone grinding enough to play 60+ hours a month. Most of these 350+ people who qualified for the freeroll(and the 280 who actually showed up) prolly average 8-12 sessions to get the 60 hours. thats 2-3 times a week. Hardly a huge difference to a grinder.

The poker room was crowded on sunday for the freeroll. lots of people played cash after they busted. I have never played a sunday cash game ever until this past one. The freeroll got me to play 6+ hours at a cash game on a day I've never played before. I'm not sure if having me stop in on dec 9th-10th will have the same effect with the $60 they give me.

This might be a bit of a long post but as someone who has started a large percentage of the 10/10 games over the last 15 months I thought I should weigh in on the conversation. I don't know anything about the night game because I never play it so everything I will be talking about will be in reference to the day game.

Our game and player pool has changed a ton over the last year. To say that the way the game is currently is a complete 180 from a year ago is correct but not in the sense that Nick (ashinynickel) is saying it is. The player pool has constantly gone through peaks and valleys over the last year. Just like now, a year ago we had many days where the game would either be shorthanded or 3 or 4 of us would be back there playing a small stakes mixed game waiting for anyone else to show up that would play. Then we would have a stretch where the game would start every day at 11 am for 3-4 weeks straight. It was and still is impossibly difficult to predict. There were a ton of these days where the game wasn't that great but the small winning players or breakeven players would still play them. I have no doubt that in these stretches had I or one of the other two guys that starts games hadn't shown up, the game would have never started.

During the quiet stretches, I think we did our best to create a positive, fun atmosphere whenever new players would come in the game. A lot of these players turned into regulars or semi-regulars for a few months and then would be replaced by a different cast that came in after another quiet period. The important thing was that we always had the game going even if it wasn't a great game. People could look on the Bravo and see the game going and know that it was an option to come in and play during the day and have a good time.

So what has changed in the last month or so?

We were somewhat in the process of going through a quiet time, especially on Mondays and Thursdays when the three of us that are almost always there to start the games decided to go to Borgata for the entire series. This was normally a time that we would be there to get the game started shorthanded in hopes of keeping the semi regular crowd there and getting new players in the game and instead the game didn't go at all during the day for 3 weeks.

In addition to this, when we returned there were many days that there was either no one there that would start the game 3 or 4 handed with us to get it up and running or there was a new player that came in that would start the game but I find him to be intolerable to play with and to be honest I'd rather sit at 2/5 then start a game with this person because he makes the game completely miserable. Also, there were many days when we easily could have started a game and a good one at that but instead of starting 5 handed in a mediocre lineup that would eventually get better, people chose not to sit. The thing with this game is that as long as the cards are in the air, people will eventually come. They may not come today or tomorrow but in a few weeks they will come. In the last week or two I've already begun to see a difference and I see some faces returning and some new people becoming semi regulars. The main difference from a year ago is that on the quiet days, the breakeven/small winning players are just not showing up at all so some days the game doesn't start at all.

I can tell you that for the day game, I don't think that lowering the game to 5-10 and making it 2k max will change anything for the positive. I think if you poll 2/5 players they will tell you that they would take a shot at the game or whatever but that's what all 2/5 players say but they very rarely do. I know from when this game used to be 5/10 that there have probably been about an equal amount of guys who have taken a shot at the 10/10 game as there were when it was 5/10 or 2k buy-in. I think the main deterrent in the 2/5 regulars taking a shot in the game is the big skill difference (whether real or perceived) between the 2/5 and the 10/10 game. The guys who are just there to gamble and not think about edges will take a shot regardless of the max buy-in and I think many of them view the big stacks as a positive thing because they think that they can turn their 1k into a big amount.

In reference to one of the more recent posts about 10-20nl running more than it ever has if there was a 5/10 game instead of 10/10: I think this would definitely not be the case. The player pool for 10/20nl is extremely small and most of those players have found a home at other casinos on set nights/days of the week. Changing the 10/10 to 5/10 would have no impact on this imo.

I have basically altered my schedule to always being there to start the 10/10 on Tuesday, Wednesday and Friday. Monday and Thursday are flex days for me where I will play sometimes and play 2/5 if I have to. I feel confident that with the player pool we currently have the game will go regularly during those days. I know that we will continue to go through the peaks and valleys with this game just as we have for the last 15 months.

I honestly don't believe that the 3k max makes that much of a difference with keeping players in action longer.

I also think that people saying all the time that the Parx game is dying and similar things to that is really bad. I've been hearing people say that for months, especially people who play at night. I always try to speak positively about the games and spread the word especially when I'm at other casinos. I think it's such a unique game that as long as its running people will want to check it out.

Nice post,and I think it's great that you feel strongly enough to take the time to write it.

Fwiw, I didn't read any downside to the structure change in your post, only that you don't believe it will help much.

I'm there now about twice per week, and I'll be there tonight at about 9.

Great post and certainly more well thought out than any of my posts ITT.

Maybe I'm complaining [too much] because dealing with short handed games or no games is not something I'm used to as a night time player. It's something I'll just have to adjust to and I'm glad that when the game has been close to breaking lately we all try to keep our chips on the table to keep the game up on Bravo.

Ill play however short, against any players. It's a necessity in the games in NY.

As the other main daytime game starter, I completely agree with everything in tre's post. I don't even have anything to add except to clarify that I am against changing anything about the 10-10 game.

I'll be there tomorrow if anyone wants to discuss it further...preferably not at the table.

I agree with most of Tre's post, though I believe there may be a small advantage to making it 5-10, but not great, and I think it would take 6 months to realize any difference.

I occassionally play with the daytime crew, but mostly I play two nights a week. As I see it, there is too much panic and too much talk about how the game is drying up with the night-time players. The other problem is that there are only a handful of players who will start a "mediocre" game at night in order to get the game started. Two weeks ago there were 6 or 7 10-10 players in the room, and no one would start the game. We finally got three of us willing to start, and sure enough, the game was full within a half an hour.

The day-time guys that start the game do a great job keeping a good playing atmosphere (though the un-named player in Tre's post does make it difficult) and starting the game. In my opinion there are too many professional grinders at night that do not do the same thing. I think if more of the grinders took a page out of Tre and Pasterbater's book the night-time games would start earlier and be more active. Just my two cents.

showing up 5 A.M. Saturday for 2/5 games. What should I expect?

Number of tables? Fish?

Good post Travis, summed up my thoughts pretty well.

No changes to the structure, everyone just fun to be around and the game will stick

Does PLO ever happen anymore?

Nice post seat 6 or 7, which one? Not sure I ever hit semi regular but you would know me. Friday's are golf day but in the winter I play cards.

I thought the day time group last winter was very open to new players, the first day i played was pretty quiet and the next time I showed up - was greeted immediately -by my 3rd day I felt totally comfortable with most of the regs(there are one or two real tool bags but every room has them). The problem is there are a few damn good players in that group. The last Friday I played we were 5 handed maybe an hour or 2 into the game and I am looking around the table thinking I must be an idiot to play short with these guys…I am in business and you have learn what a bad spot looks like and I was in it!! I packed up wished the guys well and never returned to the 10/10 game. I may well return again after the Holidays, we’ll see when the courses freeze up.

I have to disagree with you on the 3k. I was there the morning it became official. We had just started the game, it was 2k and somehow the conversation came up about the night before had been playing 3, little talk, the big guy came over and bang that fast it was done. I think we were playing 6 or so at the time. I had to call for chips, the regs all had bullets in their pockets already!

Being that deep I felt the change right away, if you recall me you will remember I was never shy to put chips in the middle and gamble is not an issue…however 1. I wasn’t used to everyone being that deep (while not being one of the better players in the game) it left quite a bit more post flop play early on…again large advantage to better players. 2. There is a different mind-set to playing 6 or 8k pots short-handed I wasn’t ready for. The poker room is your office and you were prepared, if you came to my company you may (I am sure you would) feel the same uncomfort.

Bottom line is over time I think the 3k has to have some effect on the player pool.

Play well - I may see you this afternoon with all the rain we are having!!