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Old 02-25-2011, 07:19 PM   #3651
Richyrich9987
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

I'm paraphrasing here

"I would bust my own grandmother"
--Jack Strauss


Play to win
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Old 02-25-2011, 08:28 PM   #3652
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

First off: I love Parx and it is 10 minutes from where my parents live and I come home so much more often now. It is to the point where my mom embraces my degenerate gambling.

Regarding these comments about soft-playing, I have a slightly different take. First of all, I like to stack a friend and then buy him a drink later while explaining how it is, in fact, he who is treating me. Tilt equity, etc. Secondly, I don't think there is an inherent problem with slow-playing a friend provided it is disclosed to the table that you are friends. The only reason that collusion is a problem is because the relationship is undisclosed, leading to misreads regarding the choices made by others in a hand (not counting gross cheating methods like best hand play, dead card reveals, etc). If it is clear that two players have a relationship that goes past the table, and you are aware of it, it is simply another argument that goes into your ACTION() function when making a decision.

Inherently, slow-playing a friend is a leak in one's game, I think. Your hand gets shown down more than it otherwise would, you get insight on preflop ranges as well as better drawing odds when they do not raise each other in multiway pots.

Also, the noodle bar at Parx is great. I would soft play against the roast pork udon.
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Old 02-25-2011, 08:35 PM   #3653
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by PokerSki13 View Post
i will say this again, soft playing friends, wives...is cheating. Period. If you are going to softplay someone then do not play at the same table with them.
saying something "again" and making your statement strong with words like "period" doesn't help your argument at all. Do you have any rationale behind the viewpoint?
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Old 02-25-2011, 09:45 PM   #3654
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

In the cases I saw, the softplay/checkdowns seemed to be between regulars who recognized each other. I wouldn't necessarily assume they were friends. And if friends were colluding I assume they share the profit/loss at the end of the night?

I still think it is wrong. Like was said, even if it is nothing, it still appears to be "something". At least go through the motions and check each turn. I don't know the rules, but in the WSOP main event Greg Raymer got penalized for not betting the nuts. May not apply to cash games at Parx however. Different situation having the nuts, but what are the rules in this case in a cash game? Why would you not bet anyway? I can understand why it would be against the rules in the WSOP. The penalty though was just sitting out a hand I think.
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Old 02-25-2011, 10:04 PM   #3655
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by Chaosti View Post
i think your link a bit off. try this:

http://www.parxcasino.com/gamereport/
THANKS!!!!
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Old 02-26-2011, 12:25 AM   #3656
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

also i go play with my friend at $1/$2 when I just feel like fooling around and socializing...but it's super clear we are friends...we sit next to each other...and we also fold to get out of each others' way. i can't even remember a hand we played together...so if you are going to go out of your way to sit with a friend and check down if it gets to HU...why even play the hand? just fold if your friend raises...or if u call with say 88 prelfop and flop is 722 and he cbets...just fold...how much do you lose? if not just have an agreement to play straight up and that it's not personal.
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Old 02-26-2011, 08:25 AM   #3657
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Here's an interesting piece of information. At 8 PM last night, the Borgata had 35 live games. The Taj had 34 (because of the high BBJ). Parx had 39 or 40. Delaware Park had 23 and who knows about Harrah's Chester since it's a secret.

But, it's the first time that I've noticed on a weekend night that Parx was spreading more tables than the Borgata. Of course as many know, I think that Parx will one day be the premier room on the East Coast (Because of location and Ari). Of the 35 games, the Borg had it's usual high LHE and stud games, which is just mainly regulars angling for the occasional fish.

(1) 40-80 LHE
(1) 20-40 Stud
(1) 75-150 Stud
(1) 100-200 O.E.

Same 4 to 6 tables of stud at the Taj except that because of the BBJ, they also had (6) 2/4 LHE and (3) 3/6 LHE games spread.

1/2, 2/5 NLHE had much more variety at Parx than AC and Delaware Park even beat the number of 1/2 tables at both AC rooms. With that said, if that BBJ at the Taj gets back to 700 K, I may go down for a night (donk), as much as I don't like that room. But, I will never set foot in the Borgata Poker room again. I know people love that room, but those of us who "too openly" support other rooms on 2 plus 2 no longer seem to qualify for "poker" room rates at the Borgata when we ask for them. Well, at least I don't. I probably could get one if I sent Stan a email, but not using my two plus two ID. "Layemdown" appears unwelcome at the Borgata.

Last edited by layemdown; 02-26-2011 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 02-26-2011, 08:45 AM   #3658
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolhandDuke View Post
In the cases I saw, the softplay/checkdowns seemed to be between regulars who recognized each other. I wouldn't necessarily assume they were friends. And if friends were colluding I assume they share the profit/loss at the end of the night?

I still think it is wrong. Like was said, even if it is nothing, it still appears to be "something". At least go through the motions and check each turn. I don't know the rules, but in the WSOP main event Greg Raymer got penalized for not betting the nuts. May not apply to cash games at Parx however. Different situation having the nuts, but what are the rules in this case in a cash game? Why would you not bet anyway? I can understand why it would be against the rules in the WSOP. The penalty though was just sitting out a hand I think.
You'll never escape that kind of play on occasion. Sometimes "soft play" between regs or friends happens everywhere..... in Vegas, AC and yes, even Parx. You guys have made Ari aware that you think it might be a too regular an issue at Parx. He IS READING this thread. Trust him to make floor/dealer adjustments to deal with it. He has enough insight/savvy/business sense to know that the job of fulfilling the players needs is paramount to where he wants to take his room. Does parx have a "no agree to check down" rule like DP does?
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Old 02-26-2011, 08:46 AM   #3659
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by 85chickasaw View Post
saying something "again" and making your statement strong with words like "period" doesn't help your argument at all. Do you have any rationale behind the viewpoint?
read the thread. there are differences of opinion, my opinion is that it is cheating plain and simple. I dont care if there is only 1 table if you soft play against someone it is cheating. I reiterate, dont play at the same table that you will not play to win each and every hand. It changes the dynamics of the game knowing if you get heads up against your frind, spouse.

Last edited by Rapini; 02-26-2011 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:12 AM   #3660
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerSki13 View Post
read the thread. there are differences of opinion, my opinion is that it is cheating plain and simple. I dont care if there is only 1 table if you soft play against someone it is cheating. I reiterate, dont play at the same table that you will not play to win each and every hand. It changes the dynamics of the game knowing if you get heads up against your frind, spouse.
Can you please explain how this is always cheating? If I play with my wife as if she is any stranger while we are multiway, but then check it down when we are heads up...how is this cheating? Please don't just call it "cheating"...explain the impropriety involved.

Last edited by Rapini; 02-26-2011 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:06 AM   #3661
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by Phaedrus29 View Post
Can you please explain how this is always cheating? If I play with my wife as if she is any stranger while we are multiway, but then check it down when we are heads up...how is this cheating? Please don't just call it "cheating"...explain the impropriety involved.
This has always been a controversy in the poker world, but there is no rule against players not betting against each other. What I consider soft play (when players get heads up and not bet) is not cheating in cash games. Years ago poker rooms would not let husbands or wives play at the same table, but that is just impossible to manage and I disagree with the rule.

As I have stated in the past, if a player is uncomfortable with any situation, please call a supervisor over immediately. If we wait to post on 2+2 there isnt much I can do.

As always, we greatly appreciate all the feedback and support.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:19 AM   #3662
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phaedrus29 View Post
explain the impropriety involved.
Two "strangers" are at your table. When there are other players in the pot, they're betting and raising.

When they get HU, they suddenly starting checking things down. This is a regular occurance.


1) What are your suspicions about these players? What will your actions be?

2) Now, you find out they know one another, fairly well. Will you be getting the floor involved, perhaps?


Does this answer your question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari View Post
This has always been a controversy in the poker world, but there is no rule against players not betting against each other. What I consider soft play (when players get heads up and not bet) is not cheating in cash games. Years ago poker rooms would not let husbands or wives play at the same table, but that is just impossible to manage and I disagree with the rule.

Aren't colluders counting on the "impossible to manage" answer? I agree with you and sympathize, but are there really no steps that you can take, to try to cut down on some of this?

Quote:
As I have stated in the past, if a player is uncomfortable with any situation, please call a supervisor over immediately. If we wait to post on 2+2 there isnt much I can do..
First sentence: +1, as long as hero isn't doing this ALL of the time.
Second sentence: -1. It's not just "this situation only", is it? Presumably posting about it here, post-event, can help make you aware of things that you may want to look into, for the future.
I know what you meant- this just struck me as "wrong" for some reason, this morning.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:43 AM   #3663
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashinynickel View Post
If there's one thing that scares fish the most it's not talking about range merging and and fold equity it's a bunch of variance averse live regs who check it down with each other and are always whispering.
+1

Also, softplaying in the form of checking it down with a friend when HU absolutely is collusion, even if it's not a "secret" agreement (I'm not interested in the semantics, I'm interested in the practical consequences -- the only reason that such agreements are non-secret in practice is because few people realize that this is cheating).

It's not as blatant as usual types of collusion, and it doesn't afford the cheaters as much of an advantage as more obvious stuff, but it is still collusion. For reference: stoxtrader scandal, and I'll admit that it takes a careful read and quite a bit of thought to realize how their implicit or explicit softplay agreement does indeed steal equity from the other players, but it's something we all should be aware of.

Playing poker with the goal of maximizing anybody's equity but your own is collusion even if there is not any explicit profit-sharing occurring after the session, as long as there is an implicit agreement for the favor to be returned. Stoxtrader and his partner likely did not share their winnings, but since each of them knew the other would return the favor, they each gained EV.

An implicit or explicit "check it down" agreement absolutely does affect decisions earlier in the hand when the pot is still multiway, at least it would be if the implicit colluders were acting optimally. Maybe there's an argument that a check it down agreement is OK as long as the players behave and make moves as if it didn't exist earlier in the hand, but that would be a very bad poker rule... would we allow explicit profit-sharing agreements in a cash game as long as the players "promised" to "try to play normally"?

Perhaps think about it this way - the only time when checking it down when HU is equivalent to playing it out "seriously" when HU is when the two friends do indeed have a profit-sharing agreement, which is clearly not OK. Tolerating this behavior is equivalent to tolerating partial profit-sharing agreements between players in a cash game.

Softplaying among regs is by far the most unappealing part of live play for me. So many regs do it (you know who you are) and so many do it openly. I suspect many of them don't realize that it is cheating and that it does afford them an extra edge, even if they aren't changing their play decisions on the conscious level.


I agree that actually policing this can be difficult, and I'm sure every B&M room in the world has the same head-in-the-sand policy (and that most of them have never thought the advantages of implicit conditional softplay agreements), so I sympathize with Ari. But I would at least like to see an official policy against it that could at least be given out as warnings to players. I hope that some live regs would cease the behavior if they understood it was cheating. Realistically, by "some", I mean 1-2%.

Every time I see a pot openly checked down, I get disgusted and angry. I actually have quit a session at Parx early because I got so disillusioned by this behavior that I lost respect for the good players that I would otherwise be friendly with, and I no longer had any desire to play.

I rarely feel like I, as a player, am in a position to say anything, especially when I feel a floorman would not understand my complaint. An official policy would give me the ground to speak up.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:56 AM   #3664
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by layemdown View Post
Here's an interesting piece of information. At 8 PM last night, the Borgata had 35 live games. The Taj had 34 (because of the high BBJ). Parx had 39 or 40. Delaware Park had 23 and who knows about Harrah's Chester since it's a secret.

But, it's the first time that I've noticed on a weekend night that Parx was spreading more tables than the Borgata. Of course as many know, I think that Parx will one day be the premier room on the East Coast (Because of location and Ari). Of the 35 games, the Borg had it's usual high LHE and stud games, which is just mainly regulars angling for the occasional fish.

(1) 40-80 LHE
(1) 20-40 Stud
(1) 75-150 Stud
(1) 100-200 O.E.

Same 4 to 6 tables of stud at the Taj except that because of the BBJ, they also had (6) 2/4 LHE and (3) 3/6 LHE games spread.

1/2, 2/5 NLHE had much more variety at Parx than AC and Delaware Park even beat the number of 1/2 tables at both AC rooms. With that said, if that BBJ at the Taj gets back to 700 K, I may go down for a night (donk), as much as I don't like that room. But, I will never set foot in the Borgata Poker room again. I know people love that room, but those of us who "too openly" support other rooms on 2 plus 2 no longer seem to qualify for "poker" room rates at the Borgata when we ask for them. Well, at least I don't. I probably could get one if I sent Stan a email, but not using my two plus two ID. "Layemdown" appears unwelcome at the Borgata.
Nice, I would like to see Parx try and make some inroads with getting some mid limit 7 Card Stud games. It would bring in completely new players.

Ari, half rake for 15/30 Stud one time? lol
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Old 02-26-2011, 12:03 PM   #3665
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by PokerSki13 View Post
read the thread. there are differences of opinion, my opinion is that it is cheating plain and simple. I dont care if there is only 1 table if you soft play against someone it is cheating. I reiterate, dont play at the same table that you will not play to win each and every hand. It changes the dynamics of the game knowing if you get heads up against your frind, spouse.
of course there are differences of opinions, that's why there is a discussion at all. but voicing your opinion without any reason, no matter how many times you state it or how angry you make it seem doesn't convince anyone. if you yell that pocket KK's are a better starting hand than pocket AA's till your red in the face, it doesn't make it true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by layemdown View Post
You'll never escape that kind of play on occasion. Sometimes "soft play" between regs or friends happens everywhere..... in Vegas, AC and yes, even Parx. You guys have made Ari aware that you think it might be a too regular an issue at Parx. He IS READING this thread. Trust him to make floor/dealer adjustments to deal with it. He has enough insight/savvy/business sense to know that the job of fulfilling the players needs is paramount to where he wants to take his room. Does parx have a "no agree to check down" rule like DP does?
DP has a rule against it? Honestly, this whole debate would go away if there was a rule. But unless the poker room makes one, there is no such rule for cash games. It IS basic rule in tournaments though that soft play is not allowed.
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Old 02-26-2011, 12:43 PM   #3666
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Played a 6 hour session last night, only 2nd time playing 2/5 though. Good table lots of action make a sick call with JJ and won a 2k pot, but about 20 minutes later lost a huge pot probably around 3k with AA to 89of hearts. Oh well probably would do it again if i had to probably was a 74% favorite after the turn. Damn you 6 of diamonds!!!!!

Last edited by 2to1Underdog; 02-26-2011 at 12:44 PM. Reason: Grammar
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Old 02-26-2011, 01:39 PM   #3667
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by 85chickasaw View Post
of course there are differences of opinions, that's why there is a discussion at all. but voicing your opinion without any reason, no matter how many times you state it or how angry you make it seem doesn't convince anyone. if you yell that pocket KK's are a better starting hand than pocket AA's till your red in the face, it doesn't make it true.



DP has a rule against it? Honestly, this whole debate would go away if there was a rule. But unless the poker room makes one, there is no such rule for cash games. It IS basic rule in tournaments though that soft play is not allowed.

It's a rule at Delaware Park that is very hard to enforce which is why Parx may not have it. Dealers override it sometimes, simply by ignoring it (they don't want to piss off the tippers), but if a floor is around, they will clearly tell you that DP has a "no agree to check it down rule" and also a "no open folding rule". I've been there when the floors say it and heard some of the responses from players who don't like that rule. Honestly, it gets players upset since most don't see the harm in it. As a rule, it's tricky because it is not uniformly and consistently enforced by the dealers who would have to control it to make it real.

Maybe this needs to be a entire new thread. Soft play is not limited to Parx at all. Like I said earlier, it's everywhere and many are guilty of it, including me sometimes. I may check a winner to someone recently felted and I see that they are harmed by their loses. Or I cut a break sometimes to new players who I know don't have a clue. I know how silly that is and sounds, but the money is just not that important to me to always go for the juggler......not at the levels that I play. Hey, if I was a pro, it would absolutely be different. But, I love to play. I don't like to get killed (and play within my budget and BR) and at the end of the day, I am not interested in hurting anyone financially even if it is their responsibility to not play if they can't afford the game. I will say that I'll be more aware of my own "soft play" as a result of some of the passionate responses here. But, do you guys really expect if a husband and wife bet "heads up" that it makes any difference from "soft playing" or "checking it down"? Look, if I'm in a 1/2 NL game and spouses do that, no biggie to me. I'd expect it.
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Old 02-26-2011, 04:06 PM   #3668
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by repulse View Post
+1

Also, softplaying in the form of checking it down with a friend when HU absolutely is collusion, even if it's not a "secret" agreement (I'm not interested in the semantics, I'm interested in the practical consequences -- the only reason that such agreements are non-secret in practice is because few people realize that this is cheating).

It's not as blatant as usual types of collusion, and it doesn't afford the cheaters as much of an advantage as more obvious stuff, but it is still collusion. For reference: stoxtrader scandal, and I'll admit that it takes a careful read and quite a bit of thought to realize how their implicit or explicit softplay agreement does indeed steal equity from the other players, but it's something we all should be aware of.

Playing poker with the goal of maximizing anybody's equity but your own is collusion even if there is not any explicit profit-sharing occurring after the session, as long as there is an implicit agreement for the favor to be returned. Stoxtrader and his partner likely did not share their winnings, but since each of them knew the other would return the favor, they each gained EV.

An implicit or explicit "check it down" agreement absolutely does affect decisions earlier in the hand when the pot is still multiway, at least it would be if the implicit colluders were acting optimally. Maybe there's an argument that a check it down agreement is OK as long as the players behave and make moves as if it didn't exist earlier in the hand, but that would be a very bad poker rule... would we allow explicit profit-sharing agreements in a cash game as long as the players "promised" to "try to play normally"?

Perhaps think about it this way - the only time when checking it down when HU is equivalent to playing it out "seriously" when HU is when the two friends do indeed have a profit-sharing agreement, which is clearly not OK. Tolerating this behavior is equivalent to tolerating partial profit-sharing agreements between players in a cash game.

Softplaying among regs is by far the most unappealing part of live play for me. So many regs do it (you know who you are) and so many do it openly. I suspect many of them don't realize that it is cheating and that it does afford them an extra edge, even if they aren't changing their play decisions on the conscious level.


I agree that actually policing this can be difficult, and I'm sure every B&M room in the world has the same head-in-the-sand policy (and that most of them have never thought the advantages of implicit conditional softplay agreements), so I sympathize with Ari. But I would at least like to see an official policy against it that could at least be given out as warnings to players. I hope that some live regs would cease the behavior if they understood it was cheating. Realistically, by "some", I mean 1-2%.

Every time I see a pot openly checked down, I get disgusted and angry. I actually have quit a session at Parx early because I got so disillusioned by this behavior that I lost respect for the good players that I would otherwise be friendly with, and I no longer had any desire to play.

I rarely feel like I, as a player, am in a position to say anything, especially when I feel a floorman would not understand my complaint. An official policy would give me the ground to speak up.
Thanks for the very thoughtful post...there's certainly a lot to think about there. I do understand that it is hard to simply trust that the players in the pot are truly playing normally when it is multiway...and who knows, even though my wife and I have this intention, we may unintentionally make a decision differently, knowing that it will be checked down once it becomes heads up. I don't think we ever do this, but I have to agree it might accidentally happen. Still, I feel somewhat that the benefit of the doubt should be given just at first, until suspicious multiway play is witnessed...then by all means, call the floor.

Regarding your anger and disgust at softplay at Parx: Before you storm away from the table, do make sure that you are witnessing some sort of agreement between regulars and not just the occasional missing of value or pity-checks. At Parx I see a ridiculous amount of occasional I'll-take-it-easy-on-you-because-I-don't-like-money-and-I'm-scared-you-have-the-one-hand-that-beats-me checks...presumably these shouldn't annoy you as much as make you think you're sitting at a great table.
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Old 02-26-2011, 07:11 PM   #3669
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by pipes View Post
Nice, I would like to see Parx try and make some inroads with getting some mid limit 7 Card Stud games. It would bring in completely new players.

Ari, half rake for 15/30 Stud one time? lol
I would play that, and i'm a total fish at stud!
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Old 02-26-2011, 08:04 PM   #3670
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

I called my best friend to tell him I was knocked out of a tournament holding Aces up by a woman who crushed me with a set of kings.
He said, "So, what's the big deal".
I explained to him that the woman who knocked me out was the same woman I have been married to for 47 years.
That was a long drive home from Atlantic City.
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:01 PM   #3671
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

As far as "soft play" and "checking down" are related to what is considered cheating, every situation is different. It is different between Limit & No Limit, Cash games & Tournaments. We are not talking about chip dumping in tourneys, people squeezing someone as a team repeatedly, nor squeezing someone out then folding to a river bet.

The scope of this conversation is too broad and misplaced in this thread, friendly checking down in limit cash games is common and omnipresent pretty much everywhere.
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:32 PM   #3672
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
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I called my best friend to tell him I was knocked out of a tournament holding Aces up by a woman who crushed me with a set of kings.
He said, "So, what's the big deal".
I explained to him that the woman who knocked me out was the same woman I have been married to for 47 years.
That was a long drive home from Atlantic City.
That's the problem with wives. Sometimes they screw you.
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Old 02-26-2011, 11:32 PM   #3673
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by pipes View Post
Nice, I would like to see Parx try and make some inroads with getting some mid limit 7 Card Stud games. It would bring in completely new players.

Ari, half rake for 15/30 Stud one time? lol
Absolutely...........3 dollar time for 15/30 stud.
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Old 02-27-2011, 01:53 AM   #3674
plb1880
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Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 44
Re: PARX Poker Thread

I'm a 2/5NL reg at Parx, but i love stud, and I defintly would like to see a 15/30 stud spread!
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Old 02-27-2011, 02:15 AM   #3675
pipes
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Join Date: May 2004
Location: Borgata
Posts: 2,340
Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari View Post
Absolutely...........3 dollar time for 15/30 stud.
Yes! Thank you!

It's a great move imo...steady game will bring brand new players into the room
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