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Old 12-31-2010, 04:19 PM   #2676
mixn123
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippen33 View Post
PLO is exciting and swingy whether it's played as 1-2 or 1-2 with a 5 bring in. If anything you're underestimating how big 1-2 can play.....simply because it's PLO. I you're not looking for a swingy game, then PLO isn't for you, regardless of the stakes.

I like the 1-2 w/$5 bring in but I'm also fine with straight 1-2. I play it at the Borgata as much as possible. I just don't want you to think that adding a $5 bring-in all of the sudden changes the dynamic of the game.
Then please do me a favor and elaborate on how a 1-2 with a $5 bring in does not change the dynamic of that game.

In a 6 handed 1-2 table where everyone limps it's a $12 pot or a $30 pot at 1-2 with the $5 bring in. How are the game dynamics the same? What if the BB pots it? The dynamics are changed by the sheer volume in the pot.

I've played on many many 1-2NL tables with either a straddle or a blind open $5 raise and the hand dynamics always change for those hands.

I know PLO is an exciting and swingy game by nature and I do not at all underestimate how big a standard 1-2 game can play. Being the case, why even bother adding a $5 bring in to an already exciting, swingy game that naturally plays big at 1-2. If I were interested in a $5 bring in game and were rolled accordingly, i'd personally sit at 2-5.

You are only going to discourage those who want to dabble or don't understand.
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Old 12-31-2010, 05:10 PM   #2677
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by pipes View Post
I'm partial to the 2/5. I just don't think PLO is supposed to be a low limit game, played with whites, with guys afraid of variance. If the 2/5 PLO never runs it just was not meant to be imo
I agree, but 1/2 with a 5 is a smaller game and a good compromise for an entry level game. I think 2/5 is too big as the entry level game.

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Originally Posted by Troll_Inc View Post
I think that each game has its place and hopefully both are regularly run at PARX in the near future. That is certainly the most healthy scenario.

I disagree about the 1/2 PLO sentiment expressed here. If you look online you'll see that there is a large amount of total money at 1/2 and below stakes. PLO is a much better cash game than NLHE and it astounds me that a small fraction of those players can't be steered toward PLO - if this is going to happen it is going to have to be 1/2 NL players.

If both 1/2 and 2/5 are running, then a healthy selection of 1/2 PLO games can only make the 2/5 game better.

Lastly, 1/2 PLO can be run fine and efficiently with a simple change in pot rounding procedures. After the first round of betting, either round it up (or down) to the nearest $5 increment.
What happens online has very little bearing on live poker. Online players get hundreds of hands per hour, live 1-2 PLO you are lucky to get 25, and 18-20 is common. The slowness of the 1-2 live plo keeps tons of players away, and makes regs quit the game.

The 5 bring in speeds thinks up considerably, rounding doesn't really speed things up much. The biggest time sink is when everyone limps for 2 then the button or one of the blinds pots it, and every one argues, its 16 no its 18, no its 14, ect. Then someone pots the flop and the dealer sits there trying to multiply 16 x 5 in their head while all the assistant dealer shout out numbers at them.
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Old 12-31-2010, 05:22 PM   #2678
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by mixn123 View Post
Then please do me a favor and elaborate on how a 1-2 with a $5 bring in does not change the dynamic of that game.

In a 6 handed 1-2 table where everyone limps it's a $12 pot or a $30 pot at 1-2 with the $5 bring in. How are the game dynamics the same? What if the BB pots it? The dynamics are changed by the sheer volume in the pot.

I've played on many many 1-2NL tables with either a straddle or a blind open $5 raise and the hand dynamics always change for those hands.

I know PLO is an exciting and swingy game by nature and I do not at all underestimate how big a standard 1-2 game can play. Being the case, why even bother adding a $5 bring in to an already exciting, swingy game that naturally plays big at 1-2. If I were interested in a $5 bring in game and were rolled accordingly, i'd personally sit at 2-5.

You are only going to discourage those who want to dabble or don't understand.
The dynamic doesn't change, you are still playing PLO a swingy game with lots of variance and very small edges. You are going to flip for stacks a lot with or without a bring in. The only thing the bring in changes is the size and speed of the game. I'd guess its about a 20-25% increase on both.

If a 1/4 increase in the size of the game makes it too big for a player, then I'm sorry to say it, but the game was probably too big for them in the first place. The average 1-2 NL player that has a a 5-10 bi roll and is going to bust it if they try to play PLO regularly. That doesn't help anyone. 1-2NL players should be trying to move up to 2-5, not 1-2 PLO, if they want to learn PLO they should do it online at the micros.
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Old 12-31-2010, 05:25 PM   #2679
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by BriMc View Post
I agree, but 1/2 with a 5 is a smaller game and a good compromise for an entry level game. I think 2/5 is too big as the entry level game.

What happens online has very little bearing on live poker. Online players get hundreds of hands per hour, live 1-2 PLO you are lucky to get 25, and 18-20 is common. The slowness of the 1-2 live plo keeps tons of players away, and makes regs quit the game.

The 5 bring in speeds thinks up considerably, rounding doesn't really speed things up much. The biggest time sink is when everyone limps for 2 then the button or one of the blinds pots it, and every one argues, its 16 no its 18, no its 14, ect. Then someone pots the flop and the dealer sits there trying to multiply 16 x 5 in their head while all the assistant dealer shout out numbers at them.
Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is that I think this should be tried without an entry level game. The 1/2 with a 5 bringin is a nice compromise..but it is way closer to 2/5 than 1/2...plus there is the confusion/fighting factors

I agree with your last paragraph and it is quite funny when that happens. Though I often get annoyed with the people who pot it as well. Just make it 12 to go or some number close to the pot that you are sure is legal.
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Old 12-31-2010, 05:45 PM   #2680
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by Troll_Inc View Post
I think that each game has its place and hopefully both are regularly run at PARX in the near future. That is certainly the most healthy scenario.
.
I hope that is the case. But right now I think there is only room for one game. Maybe it can be spread as 1/2 on Sun-Thur then on Fr/Sat it will be 2/5 or 5/5?

1/2 with 5 bringin might be trying to cut the baby in half

Don't move it up or down on those nights...just let it be.

Last edited by pipes; 12-31-2010 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 12-31-2010, 08:45 PM   #2681
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by pipes View Post
Regarding the PLO..just my 2 cents

1) 1-2 with 5 bringin...being able to raise it up to 20 is the standard. Counting each blind as $5 is correct. Of course there are no absolute rules so counting them as $5 total can be done. But it should be specified by Ari as the rule of the room and all the dealers must be on the same page When people aren't, that's when the arguing starts.

2) Basically the 1-2 with the 5$ bringin is 2/5 except it costs $3 a round to fold instead of $7. And people should not be coming in with $20 often to try and steal $3. Those two differences aside, I think it might fool people into thinking its closer to 1/2 than 2/5. This is why people sit down and then leave. That can't be good, and it brings on the fighting.

3) So I say to keep it simple and just make it either 1/2 or 2/5




4) I'm partial to the 2/5. I just don't think PLO is supposed to be a low limit game, played with whites, with guys afraid of variance. If the 2/5 PLO never runs it just was not meant to be imo

5) Ari has shown great management of the room. I hope he steps in here soon and makes some type of declaration regarding the PLO games. Because all of the fighting/confusion is not helping here

After reading the thread about this, there is a lot of debate. This is not healthy for the game, I will make a final decision by the end of the night.

Thanks

Ari
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Old 12-31-2010, 09:15 PM   #2682
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by pipes View Post
Regarding the PLO..just my 2 cents

1) 1-2 with 5 bringin...being able to raise it up to 20 is the standard. Counting each blind as $5 is correct. Of course there are no absolute rules so counting them as $5 total can be done. But it should be specified by Ari as the rule of the room and all the dealers must be on the same page When people aren't, that's when the arguing starts.

2) Basically the 1-2 with the 5$ bringin is 2/5 except it costs $3 a round to fold instead of $7. And people should not be coming in with $20 often to try and steal $3. Those two differences aside, I think it might fool people into thinking its closer to 1/2 than 2/5. This is why people sit down and then leave. That can't be good, and it brings on the fighting.

3) So I say to keep it simple and just make it either 1/2 or 2/5

4) I'm partial to the 2/5. I just don't think PLO is supposed to be a low limit game, played with whites, with guys afraid of variance. If the 2/5 PLO never runs it just was not meant to be imo

5) Ari has shown great management of the room. I hope he steps in here soon and makes some type of declaration regarding the PLO games. Because all of the fighting/confusion is not helping here
Ari....this is the post you quoted ???


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ari View Post
After reading the thread about this, there is a lot of debate. This is not healthy for the game, I will make a final decision by the end of the night.

Thanks

Ari
making the game 2/5 should NOT be the final decision. "if it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be" is ridiculous. The game runs as is (1/2 or 1/2/5) 3 or 4 nights a week. 2/5 WILL kill the game. It will become a once a week game...tops.

Maybe others can chime in and vote....but for me, the two options you should be deciding between are:

1) Straight 1-2 PLO. Max open is to $8 (counting blinds as $2 each)

2) 1 -2 blinds with a $5 bring in....thus making the open $5, $10 or $15.


There has been SO MUCH bickering in this thread the past 2 weeks

ie: the 15 game, 2/4 or no 2/4, the way 1-2 PLO is structured. Christ, it's ridiculous. Now all the bickering is going to F up or kill a great game.
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Old 12-31-2010, 09:44 PM   #2683
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by pipes View Post
I hope that is the case. But right now I think there is only room for one game. Maybe it can be spread as 1/2 on Sun-Thur then on Fr/Sat it will be 2/5 or 5/5?
I think that this is the wrong way to look at the situation.

A casino sets up a standard format to run their games and then the players arrive and play what they want to from the selections available. If 6 people show up tomorrow and want to play 5/10 PLO, the casino will spread that game.

I agree that most likely, right now, there will only be one PLO game running. Although, I'll bet anyone that if standard 1/2 and 2/5 PLO games are available, then within the next month at someone point, two tables of PLO will be running concurrently.

Also, whatever the decision it would be good to have one page summary of the game so that the dealers, floor and players are all on the same page. If this was already offered and distributed, then there wouldn't be the current confusion.
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Old 12-31-2010, 10:15 PM   #2684
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Originally Posted by Troll_Inc
right now here's the NL low limit list:
$1-2No Limit Hold'em 27
$2-5No Limit Hold'em 8

THERE ARE ZERO PLO GAMES GOING RIGHT NOW

HERE'S A REAL DICHOTOMY
Troll's count shows 35 tables running - zero % of which were PLO
The last four pages of this thread have been roughly 90% PLO gab

Perhaps, another example of a lot of talk and very little action?
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Old 12-31-2010, 10:21 PM   #2685
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim215 View Post
Originally Posted by Troll_Inc
right now here's the NL low limit list:
$1-2No Limit Hold'em 27
$2-5No Limit Hold'em 8

THERE ARE ZERO PLO GAMES GOING RIGHT NOW

HERE'S A REAL DICHOTOMY
Troll's count shows 35 tables running - zero % of which were PLO
The last four pages of this thread have been roughly 90% PLO gab

Perhaps, another example of a lot of talk and very little action?
everyone is on here bitching, not there playing. so, obviously, no games are going.
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Old 12-31-2010, 10:28 PM   #2686
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim215 View Post
Originally Posted by Troll_Inc
right now here's the NL low limit list:
$1-2No Limit Hold'em 27
$2-5No Limit Hold'em 8

THERE ARE ZERO PLO GAMES GOING RIGHT NOW

HERE'S A REAL DICHOTOMY
Troll's count shows 35 tables running - zero % of which were PLO
The last four pages of this thread have been roughly 90% PLO gab

Perhaps, another example of a lot of talk and very little action?
If that's true...that's the most # of 1/2 I have seen...anywhere.

Sick.
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Old 12-31-2010, 10:56 PM   #2687
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Ari if your goal is to cultivate a PLO game the bring-in and utg raise to 15 or 20 is making the game play way bigger then it should be.You will most likely bust any new blood willing to take a shot.
If you first establish a regular 1/2 game then you may be able to feed a 2/5 or a separate bring -in game.If you wish to leave it a closed game then leave it like it is.
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Old 12-31-2010, 11:03 PM   #2688
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by Pippen33 View Post
If that's true...that's the most # of 1/2 I have seen...anywhere.

Sick.
Was talking with a PARX dealer about that the other night, and one thing just to remember is the 9-handed tables so minus 2-3 tables from the 27. Though that's still a lot anyways.
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Old 12-31-2010, 11:05 PM   #2689
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippen33 View Post
Ari....this is the post you quoted ???




making the game 2/5 should NOT be the final decision. "if it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be" is ridiculous. The game runs as is (1/2 or 1/2/5) 3 or 4 nights a week. 2/5 WILL kill the game. It will become a once a week game...tops.

Maybe others can chime in and vote....but for me, the two options you should be deciding between are:

1) Straight 1-2 PLO. Max open is to $8 (counting blinds as $2 each)

2) 1 -2 blinds with a $5 bring in....thus making the open $5, $10 or $15.


There has been SO MUCH bickering in this thread the past 2 weeks

ie: the 15 game, 2/4 or no 2/4, the way 1-2 PLO is structured. Christ, it's ridiculous. Now all the bickering is going to F up or kill a great game.
I don't think only spreading 2/5 was ever in the decision, I think what he means is 5 bring in or no 5 bring in.

Either way, Ari's right, the bickering is no good, lets just play poker.
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Old 01-01-2011, 03:36 PM   #2690
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by Pippen33 View Post
Ari....this is the post you quoted ???




making the game 2/5 should NOT be the final decision. "if it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be" is ridiculous. The game runs as is (1/2 or 1/2/5) 3 or 4 nights a week. 2/5 WILL kill the game. It will become a once a week game...tops.

Maybe others can chime in and vote....but for me, the two options you should be deciding between are:

1) Straight 1-2 PLO. Max open is to $8 (counting blinds as $2 each)

2) 1 -2 blinds with a $5 bring in....thus making the open $5, $10 or $15.


There has been SO MUCH bickering in this thread the past 2 weeks

ie: the 15 game, 2/4 or no 2/4, the way 1-2 PLO is structured. Christ, it's ridiculous. Now all the bickering is going to F up or kill a great game.
He didn't make a decision..he just quoted my post

I made some opinions..others have made theirs. We are going to benefit and the bickering (I call it debate though) should stop once Ari makes a decision about what game the room will try to spread.
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Old 01-01-2011, 04:11 PM   #2691
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

what ever happened to the high limit section after the expansion? so far the 5/10nl is the biggest game. plo is stuck at 1/2 and rarely runs. was i the only one who had higher expectations? all the expansion did was open up more 1/2nl tables when i thought it would be spreading more games and higher stakes.
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Old 01-01-2011, 04:29 PM   #2692
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Playing 4/8 OE with IFSATG right now. Kudos to Ari and his floor people for letting us get this game going. First time at PARX and thoroughly impressed with everything so far.
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Old 01-01-2011, 04:56 PM   #2693
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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what ever happened to the high limit section after the expansion? so far the 5/10nl is the biggest game. plo is stuck at 1/2 and rarely runs. was i the only one who had higher expectations? all the expansion did was open up more 1/2nl tables when i thought it would be spreading more games and higher stakes.
Not accurate, last week 10/25NL and 30/60L were running.
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Old 01-01-2011, 05:47 PM   #2694
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by Ari View Post
After reading the thread about this, there is a lot of debate. This is not healthy for the game, I will make a final decision by the end of the night.
Thanks
Ari
Regardless of the outcome, I truly appreciate both the dialogue here and the fact that Parx takes player input into consideration.

Parx is the best poker room on the east coast and that's as a direct result of excellent staff and management.
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Old 01-01-2011, 09:30 PM   #2695
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

The 1/2 PLO game at the Borgata has never sprouted into anything. And the times I have played in it, I consider it to be the worst live PLO game I've ever played.

I don't think the 1/2 NLHE players are the feeder. A 5/5 PLO game might have the most action in the room.

But I look forward to Ari's decision and will play in any game that is spread.
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Old 01-01-2011, 09:57 PM   #2696
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

How can i find out if 1/2/5 plo is running now at parx?
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:35 PM   #2697
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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How can i find out if 1/2/5 plo is running now at parx?
http://www.parxcasino.com/gamereport/
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Old 01-01-2011, 11:39 PM   #2698
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

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Originally Posted by NJchick View Post
Playing 4/8 OE with IFSATG right now. Kudos to Ari and his floor people for letting us get this game going. First time at PARX and thoroughly impressed with everything so far.
Thanks NJchick.....were you the blonde lady with glasses?

Ari
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Old 01-02-2011, 12:01 AM   #2699
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Thanks NJchick.....were you the blonde lady with glasses?

Ari
Yeah that's correct sir
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Old 01-02-2011, 02:10 AM   #2700
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Re: PARX Poker Thread

We had three tables of 15-30 going for a number of hours today as well. Good times.

For any who may find this interesting, it appears as though the following rules may go into effect, though as usual we should wait for Ari to post about them definitively:

1- Must moves. Rather than "chaining" must moves together, there will always just be a single must move table which feeds all the remaining (full) tables. Though this does have the drawback of not "protecting" the original main table if the must-move table breaks, it has the benefit of allowing people on the main tables to table change to other main games (but not the must move) if they so desire. (A chained must move does not offer this flexibility - you can never table change in this system, and are always stuck at whatever table is the right one for your position number.)

2- Third man walking has been adjusted. Rather than picking up the third person immediately, you will now only be picked up if you miss your blind. So play your blinds, play the button if you want, and you then have 4 more hands of time to take care of your business away from the table.

(As an aside, I heard a number of people complaining about 3MW being a rule "now that we're 9 handed". As if the rule only makes sense at a 10 handed table. This makes no sense to me - it is an especially good rule at a 9 handed table, because it keeps you from getting shorthanded as easily and possibly breaking the game. That is the whole point of 3MW.)

3- In time games, you are no longer given a practically unlimited amount of time away from the table (as one of the first two away). Absent buttons are now in use. You will now be picked up the moment you receive your third button (i.e. right as the third new dealer sits down). This means you will have somewhere between 60-90 minutes away from the table before you get picked up. (I'm not sure if this same rule will be in effect for rake games, or if it is already the rule even, though rather than use absent buttons I think they just use the Bravo lobby timer.) Note that I think this rule change may still be in discussion and not finalized - there was some discussion about possibly having it be 30 minutes shorter, but since this means you might get picked up as soon as 31 minutes after leaving, I don't think they will go this way.

Do note that Parx does offer a dinner list, if you are planning to be away for more than 30 minutes or an hour. Rather than take up a seat for an extended absence, just let the floor know that you want to be put on that list, then pick up your chips, and when you return you'll be put at the top of the list for the next available seat.

Last edited by dinesh; 01-02-2011 at 02:21 AM.
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