Not aware of ever getting to see SB mucked cards.




Thanks...

There seems to be a strong interest from Parx live and on 2+2 for a mid limit mix game. Everybody wants to play, nobody wants to start it.

If you build it, they will come.

I like the rule, and I'd actually like to see it taken one step further.

The ratio of IWTSTH abuse/legit has to be at least 10:1. Its to the point where people think, or at least claim to think invoking IWTSTH just cause they want info is an acceptable thing to do. I've had it happen 3 times in the past few months where someone wins an all in pot against me, shows, I go to muck, then they demand my hand be exposed either for info or just to needle. No hint of collusion, just cause they want to expose it and don't know or don't care that its bad etiquette.

I'd like to seen the dealers autocall the floor anytime IWTSTH is invoked and have it explained what the purpose of the rule is and only expose the hand if the person invoking can provide some reasonable suspicion of collusion.

As far as stoping actual collusion, Parx does a great job of it, the few times there was evidence of it the guilty were put on watch to the point where they quickly had to cut the crap, and/or quit coming to Parx. None of that involved IWTSTH in the slightest.

I never understood why it is perceived as bad etiquette to want to see a players hand at showdown.
This is information I was willing to pay for.So punish me because I won the hand ?
My information was exposed to table so should the losers.

Thinking about heading down to PARX this weekend for the first time. Anyone have any suggestions about the best way of getting from downtown Manhattan to PARX casino? I'm assuming bus in the best way to go. Thank you in advance.

I agree, all it takes is a group of committed regs to start the game and it will get built.

I started a thread to try to get it going, we were going to try for Wednesday, but the 30 mix game started around the same time and go more traction. In the mean time PLO has really gotten rooted to the point where it runs every day, so I'm not really up for trying to build another game, but I will definitely play if someone else wants to take the baton and organize it.

I was going to explain it in my own words, but I can't do it justice, so I'll just quote this from Tommy Angelo, the whole article is HERE and it explains why the IWTSTH rule should be put out to pasture.

"Free information. Here is a definition of one type of cheating at poker: "The willful manufacture of information that is not available to all." One could say that using IWTSTH in order to gain information about how others play is not a "manufacture of information that is not available to all," since others could gain the same information simply by asking, and any revealed information is revealed to all.
Most players, however, consider it bad etiquette to abuse IWTSTH. So they don't ask to see hands, even when they are intensely curious, even when the information is potentially valuable. Those who do ask to see hands do so when the information is most pertinent, thereby manufacturing useful information of a type that is not available to those who feel bound by scruples never to ask. It's like the boxer who intentionally swings low against an opponent who never does.
Many players think of poker as being, in part, a struggle to conceal information. To them, and to me, abuse of IWTSTH is an infringement of privacy rights. Ask any player how they feel after someone asked to see their hand, and they'll likely say they feel violated. My poker hand is like my dick. If I want you to see it, I'll show it to you. But no! With IWTSTH, we are forced to bare all."

Anyone know why parx won't set up a group rate for nearby motels?

Hey I was wondering if any 1/3 plo regs could let me know how much I should sit in that game with.

Always sit with the max or we will call you a girly man.

Seriously though, there is no right answer to this other than it depends on your playing style, table dynamics, bankroll ect.

In other word moar info please; how much PLO experience do you have? What is your playing style? What is your roll?

This is true. I just dont know how comfortable most folks are sitting w/ a wad of cashed stuffed down their pants on the night owl.

My experience w/ the night owl after living in philly for many many years is that its a bit of an experience to say the least. I'd recommend safer transportation if possible.

As far as my own saftey goes I personally feel somewhat comfortable taking the bus while still retaining some reservations about holding onto a grip of cash money, but to an out of towner, i'd say hail a cab.

i guess a simple do as i say not as i do sort of phenomenon.

So you're saying that because most players (though I'm not sure I agree that it is most players) consider it bad etiquette to invoke IWTSTH (I won't say abuse because to some people any use of IWTSTH is abuse while others don't) so they don't use it, I shouldn't use it? That sounds like some backwards logic to me.

Personally, I can't remember invoking IWTSTH even once, but I don't get offended or feel violated when somebody else does.

I've never seen any evidence to show that the intent of IWTSTH was to prevent or uncover collusion or cheating. I've heard and seen plenty of people claim that is the reason, but I've never seen any reference to any rule book or any other point of reference from a point of authority that says it is supposed to be used to prevent cheating. I think people that want to prevent giving away information may have come up with that reasoning so they could guilt people into not using it to see their hands. Maybe you feel violated when somebody invokes IWTSTH because you've been told that it is supposed to be used when cheating is suspected. If you hadn't been told that and just knew it was a rule that somebody could invoke, would it really bother you so much?

I've been thinking about the last couple of times that I can remember IWTSTH invoked and I can only remember the last two times and both of them were the caller asking to see the bettor's hand. If the bettor would have just turned up his hand immediately after the bet was called, then IWTSTH wouldn't have been invoked. I wonder how many times this is the case?

there is a huge difference between calling and waiting for villain to show his cards and asking dealer to show mucked cards..there are definitely times that i call and I want to see what he has and there are times i call and i'm not sure if i'm best and don't want the world to know i call with King high and stuff.

i also hate the nonsense of "your ace is good" "u got a boat? that's good"

just no..flip your hand up and i'll read it then flip mine up if i'm good...and no if i just call u on the river i don't have a boat

if people start with that i usually wait it out and see their hand...if they say "missed" or "no pair" or muck or make a mucking motion i flip my hand over fast

i wish they could make the rule you have to say "I suspect collusion I want to see that hand" - people would use the rule a lot less then but it would still be in place for what it's intended for

Anywhere from 200-500 tends to work.

Perhaps you should click the link in my OP and read the whole article Tommy wrote, things should be much clearer after that.

Oh, and in your last paragraph what you describe isn't IWTSTH, its just waiting for the person who's turn it is to act to show their hand.

Thanks for the info...I would most likely sit with 300-500.

the min/max is 200-500 so your range sounds fine.

I buy $300 red $50 green and put $350 in play

So back to my original question: how does one prove collusion in a heads up pot if only the winner of the hand can ask to see the losing players cards? The players who folded before the showdown will never have their cards revealed and they should be mucked together with all other folded cards. If I suspect players A and B of collusion but only player C and A have a showdown(bc player B folded the turn due to him realizing player A actually had a hand) how do I go about detecting collusion?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqmHXnryakA

I did read the article and I still don't agree with it. I was just referencing the section you decided to quote and pointing that I didn't agree with the logic of the argument. Tommy is arguing that because some people think it is bad etiquette to ask for freely available information, then it becomes information that isn't available to everyone because some people won't ask for it. The fact is, the information IS available to everyone, some people choose not to avail themselves of it, whether because the don't know they are entitled to it or because they feel it is bad etiquette to ask for it.

An analogy that popped in to my head is hotel room upgrades. Almost all hotels have upgrades available and most that have them will give them to anybody that asks. Many people may not ask for an upgrade because they don't know that they are available or they may be too embarrassed or think it's bad etiquette to ask for something for free. Either way, they won't ask for it. Does this mean that I shouldn't just because most people won't? Using Tommy's logic WRT IWTSTH, it would be cheating or bad form for me to ask for an upgraded hotel room because most people won't ask for one.

Something else to consider is that etiquette isn't something written in stone and can change over time. Just because some consider it bad etiquette or is used to be considered bad etiquette doesn't mean it should always be considered bad etiquette. Have you ever seen some of the etiquette books/pamphlets from 40 or 50 years ago? There are a lot of things that are socially accepted today that would be considered bad etiquette back then.

If poker players want to spend their time trying to change the behavior of today's players, I would rather spend that time teaching people to just table their hand when action is complete rather than play games to see who has a better hand and try to muck rather than show. I think that happens a lot more than IWTSTH and takes up way more time. I also think that behavior is in poorer taste than invoking IWTSTH.

And the situation I was referring to in my last paragraph is when the caller flipped over their hand first (instead of waiting for the bettor to play games or take forever in flipping over their cards) and then the bettor threw his cards in to be mucked. It was then that the caller asked to see the hand.

I agree with the point you are making. I think, though, for purposes of furthering the discussion, that a better analogy is flopping (i.e., simulation) in soccer. It may currently be considered bad etiquette to flop in the U.S., but it is becoming more and more an accepted part of the game elsewhere--a skill if one does it well. Is it "cheating" to flop? Yes and no. There are rules against it, and doing it poorly will lead to a penalty, but a skilled simulation could really help a team. (Similarly to IWTSTH, the rules enabling it were meant to protect players.) Likewise, IWTSTH isn't strictly speaking cheating, but doing it excessively could lead to a penalty, like, say, people selecting other tables. In the future, though, it may simply become standard. Not sure if I agree with that development or care very much, though.

and continuing off your flopping is on"ly looked down upon in the US analogy" - we are in the US...so cut it out...people don't like it here

I've tried pretty much every way to get it going. Start it on here, start it there, start it every where.....but it's really only gone off once (15/30 6 game went once too). There only ever seems to be 2-3 people interested at any one time.

I'll play 2 or 3 handed for a while to get it started. Post here or PM if interested in trying to get it running.

To me Wednesday night seems like a good time to take a shot with sometimes 2 tables of O/E running.

The other alternative will be once Parx gets $10 chips to petition Ari to allow a 10/20 OE or 10/20 Mix game to run. I can see why they wouldn't do this for Limit Holdem, but it makes sense for non-holdem games.

I would be interested in Playing a mid limit mix game but with my job and my kids it is really hard for me to get there...but if I am there and it is going
I will sit with you sharks and donate $1500 to your bankrolls

A few questions about Parx before I grind there this weekend.

1. How are the 1/2-2/5NL games during the weekends? Fri and Sat nights. (9pm-3am)
2. Do most people go home after 1am and as a result, games break/combine tables?
If there is steady action, it makes it more appealing than AC.
3. For 1/2-2/5NL does they rake time or rake per pot won?
4. How does their comp system work? Borgata is $1 per hour at 1/2 and $2 per hour at 2/5.

Thanks for all of your answers. Looking forward to making the trip out.

Weekend games 2/5 are good... mix of tables from tight to loose, and enough to table change if you want. Buyin is $1k max (so different from Borg/AC options). 1/2 is all over the board and $300 max.
Raked pots.
Comps are $1/hr regardless of 1/2 or 2/5.
Games go well into night, and so, you can find yourself staying in one place, or breaking into another... but either way, you will be at a game.