Quote:
Originally Posted by ashinynickel
If there's one thing that scares fish the most it's not talking about range merging and and fold equity it's a bunch of variance averse live regs who check it down with each other and are always whispering.
+1
Also, softplaying in the form of checking it down with a friend when HU
absolutely is collusion, even if it's not a "secret" agreement (I'm not interested in the semantics, I'm interested in the practical consequences -- the only reason that such agreements are non-secret in practice is because few people realize that this is cheating).
It's not as blatant as usual types of collusion, and it doesn't afford the cheaters as
much of an advantage as more obvious stuff, but it is still collusion. For reference:
stoxtrader scandal, and I'll admit that it takes a careful read and quite a bit of thought to realize how their implicit or explicit softplay agreement does indeed steal equity from the other players, but it's something we all should be aware of.
Playing poker with the goal of maximizing anybody's equity but
your own is collusion even if there is not any explicit profit-sharing occurring after the session, as long as there is an
implicit agreement for the favor to be returned. Stoxtrader and his partner likely did not share their winnings, but since each of them knew the other would return the favor, they each gained EV.
An implicit or explicit "check it down" agreement absolutely does affect decisions earlier in the hand when the pot is still multiway, at least it would be if the implicit colluders were acting optimally. Maybe there's an argument that a check it down agreement is OK as long as the players behave and make moves as if it didn't exist earlier in the hand, but that would be a very bad poker rule... would we allow explicit profit-sharing agreements in a cash game as long as the players "promised" to "try to play normally"?
Perhaps think about it this way - the only time when checking it down when HU is
equivalent to playing it out "seriously" when HU is when the two friends do indeed have a profit-sharing agreement, which is clearly not OK. Tolerating this behavior is equivalent to tolerating partial profit-sharing agreements between players in a cash game.
Softplaying among regs is by far the most unappealing part of live play for me. So many regs do it (you know who you are) and so many do it openly. I suspect many of them don't realize that it is cheating and that it does afford them an extra edge, even if they aren't changing their play decisions on the conscious level.
I agree that actually policing this can be difficult, and I'm sure every B&M room in the world has the same head-in-the-sand policy (and that most of them have never thought the advantages of implicit conditional softplay agreements), so I sympathize with Ari. But I would at least like to see an official policy against it that could at least be given out as warnings to players. I hope that
some live regs would cease the behavior if they understood it was cheating. Realistically, by "some", I mean 1-2%.
Every time I see a pot openly checked down, I get disgusted and angry. I actually have quit a session at Parx early because I got so disillusioned by this behavior that I lost respect for the good players that I would otherwise be friendly with, and I no longer had any desire to play.
I rarely feel like I, as a player, am in a position to say anything, especially when I feel a floorman would not understand my complaint. An official policy would give me the ground to speak up.