I think that is the rationale, although I'm not sure the rationale is rational. It's a lot easier to lose a non-sustainable amount of money playing 30/60 LHE than 1/2 NL. Capping the buy-ins almost certainly has more of a protective effect than capping the stakes.

Still, people/politicians see people shoving all-in for millions of dollars on TV and get scared that the multimillionaire fish in their district will do the same at their local cardroom.

Oaks really needs a LHE game between 6/12 and 15/30. I wish they had 8/16 with a half kill, like Bay101 does. I bet it'd be super popular.

Is that the kind of thing the city has to approve? If not, who would one approach at Oaks to try and get the ball rolling, if that were feasible?

8/16 is a different chip structure than the rest of their limit games. Might make them reluctant. And while I haven't been in months, I also can't see management making a decision that might endanger the health of their existing games, especially the two you mentioned - 6/12 and 15/30.

Although I remember when SL was introduced, the sky was falling and the 15-30 was gonna dry up and disappear. That never happened obviously.

And I'm not disagreeing with you - I'd play in the 8/16 myself if it existed in the East Bay, and it is a great level between 6-12/15-30. Just pointing out some potential obstacles.

I'd love to see the Oaks switch from 3-6 structures to 4-8 structures for its limit hold'em games. Bellagio made the switch without problems, from what I understand. But the 15-30 has been 15-30 since dinosaurs roamed down San Pablo Avenue.

I think it would be ideal to have 3-6, 6-12, 8-16 w/half-kill, 20-40, and 40-80. But it's not going to happen. (I don't think city approval would be needed, but I could be wrong.)

But in case you feel like beating your head against the wall, the people to talk to would be Wayne H., Larry T., and the owner, John Tibbetts.

(Mods: Naming names of Oaks senior staff OK?)

How many games of each level (3/6, 6/12, 15/30) are typically running right now at say 2pm on a weekday and at primetime (like 7pm on Friday night)?

If there aren't enough 6/12 and 15/30 games, I'm not sure an 8/16 level is feasible.

There are usually at least two 6/12 games at 2 pm, sometimes three at primetime hours. There is usually one 15/30, but sometimes two during primetime. And usually one 30/60, although with two on rare occasions.

I don't know about 3/6, but it's their most popular game -- maybe three or four tables at most times?

What I'd hope for, if I was them, is that most 30/60 players would be willing to play 40/80, and most good 15/30 players willing to play 20/40. There is a healthy contingent of 6/12 players who don't want to risk enough money for 15/30, but who I think would be happy to play 8/16. I bet they could start up an 8/16 table any time there were three 6/12 tables.

The problem you have now is that you often have 30/60 regs and good props hanging out at 15/30 waiting for a 30/60 seat. When those players are there, 15/30 tends to be comparatively tight, and aspiring 15/30 players like myself will stay at 6/12 where the action is always good.

Honestly, it doesn't sound like there are enough players at the current limits to support a whole new level. 8/16 would cannibalize some 15/30 players and some 6/12 players, and if there are only 1-3 tables of each now... there's just no incentive for the Oaks to try it.

It's way easier and probably more important to keep at least 2+ tables of 6/12 going than probably anything else. Like it's better for them to have 2-3 6/12 tables and 1-2 15/30 tables going than something like 2 6/12, 1 8/16, and 1 15/30.

For 8/16 to ever happen, what's probably more likely is that rake and/or inflation will push 3/6 up to 4/8, and then 6/12 would move to 8/16 and they'd keep the 15/30 and 30/60.

Just my opinion.

This is certainly true in the short term.

There is the long term to think about as well. The 15-30 will be stronger in the long run, I believe, if there is an easier ladder for players to climb to get into it.

My real concern is the 30-60. I want the path of ascent to be easier for players to climb; and the real stumbling block I see is the big gap between 6-12 and 15-30.

I have another concern as well, and that is regular players who had been 30-60 or 15-30 regs moving down. There's been a lot of that over the past year or so, and it would be good to have an intermediate level for them to settle into rather than 6-12. These players might be happier, though, in a 9-18 with the same blind structure and no kill than perhaps they would in an 8-16 with a different structure and a half-kill. The kill makes it more of an action game, and some of the people moving down are action-averse.

The 9-18 game would probably be easier to sell to Oaks management than an 8-16 w/half-kill, even though the 8-16 structure is more fashionable in the wider poker world. But the Captain's reasoning still holds, and "easier" here means "slightly less impossible."

Is oaks my best option for LHE close to SF?
Does any PLO go.
Thank you

Yes

Nope.

It depends. Do you think San Jose is close to SF? If so, then Bay 101 is your likely best option. Otherwise, though, go for the Oaks.
No.

Ok, thanks
Bay 101 is probably about 45 from downtown?

At midnight, perhaps.

City approval is needed. Oaks games are very narrowly defined - they cannot spread a mixed game, not even a mix of three games they are separately licensed to spread, because of the narrow definitions. That being said, the city may have already approved it - I believe that the list of games on the wall by the non-secret men's room is a complete list of everything they are licensed to spread. And IIRC 20/40 and 40/80 are on there.

9/18 is probably more feasible than 8/16 HK. It'd be a 3/6 chip structure with $3 chips, which already exist (they're drop chips for the 1/2 FL and 2/4 stud games).

I think some non-structural changes could also help the 6/13-15/30 transition. Moving the 15/30 game to, say, table 16 makes it more visible and less "over there" ish. On the other hand, if the Oaks wants to create a "high limit section" feel, they should make more of an effort to keep 15-16-17-18 segregated from other games. The hybrid system makes 15/30 seem distant and inaccessible without the glamour/novelty of a dedictaed section.

Table 18 is the traditional table for the 15-30, which, traditionally, was the biggest game in the room (until the 30-60 started to be spread intermittently 10 or 12 years ago).

I've always felt that the Oak and Gold rooms should be the identified top section, with the 15-30 and 30-60 games and maybe a round table for 60- or 80-limit lowball; but evidently management does not agree.

Are the tables easily moved? B/c right now, the tables back there are small and do not have shufflemasters.

The other thing is that in the one room (Oak or Gold? not sure), there's one of those insane Asian games that gets a buttload of action, which means an intolerable amount of yelling and screaming. It always annoys me when I have to play back there.

Besides, I'm sure nobody wants to give up the benefit of that excellent 10" TV in the hole in the wall next to 18...

IIRC the reason that 18 was the Big Game was to create a "top section" where the riff raff couldn't watch and gain all the secrets of poker. I think that rationale no longer applies and may actually be the exact opposite in today's climate.

Tradition is overrated anyway.

I currently play 1-1-2 at Lucky Chances.

rake is brutal but the games are solid.

Never been to the oaks. How would you compare the two rooms? game quality / rake structure the same? / LC is a little bigger right?

I plan on checking it Oaks. I play some LHE but not as well but I am interested in this 6/12 game

does 6/12 flhe run bigger than 1/1/2 nlhe? is the rake in 3/6 lhe beatable?

which is relatively softer?

I'm enjoying the games over here in Colma however that drop is something else. 2 when no flop (wtf I thought it was basically always no flop no drop). 4 then add 2 more for the bad beat jackpot when a flop is seen.

Does oaks have a bad beat jackpot? plus side of it though is it is possible to hit and attracts rec players.

is the 1/1/2 rake even beatable long term?

lotta questions haha thanks guys

Oaks doesn't spread NLHE; they spread 2-100 ("100 max") and 2-200 spread-limit ("200 max") games. The 100 max has a $200 maximum buy-in, and 200 max $400. $4 drop from each game. Both games are beatable, but you should expect barely better than minimum wage in the 100 max.

The games use the more conventional two-blind structure instead of the Northern California 3-blind structure, $1 small blind and $2 big blind in both games.

My sense is that 1-1-2 (or the 100 max) plays about as big as 3-6; the 200 max plays about as big as 6-12.

Oaks has fewer tables than Lucky Chances. When LC first opened, it was by far the better room: better managed, better food, bigger games. The last few times I've been there, in the past year, I've felt it's gotten a bit seedier than it used to be. The boards aren't as well run as they used to be, with inconsistency and favoritism shown in calling people to games. The Oaks is a fairly tight ship these days, to everyone's benefit.

The rake in 3-6 LHE at the Oaks is $4/hand (no flop no drop). This might be beatable, but if so not even for minimum wage. 6-12 is eminently beatable. Ranking the games from toughest to softest, I'd say 200 max, then 6-12, then 100 max, then 3-6 (but however bad the players are at 3-6, it's a challenge to take money out of the game).

Oaks has a jackpot, funded out of the drop (no extra charge). Four of a kind beaten, both cards in winner's and loser's hand must play; pool ranges from $10K to a maximum of $50K.

What is the rake in the 15-30 game? Someone told me they thought it had gone up from when I played there about a year and a half ago.

$4 no flop no drop

With the caveat that I have a LAGtard reputation in the 100 max, I hAve a 80 bb/hr variance in the game, putting it on par with 6/12 LHE.

Thanks, but is that a recent increase or the same? Just curious, I can't remember what it was the last time I was there.

It's been $4/hand for as long as it's been a per-hand drop and not a time charge.

Cool so all of the Oaks holdem games are nfnd?

And did I read right that the 100max and the 200 max have the same blind structure?