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View Poll Results: Which casino operator would you prefer to get E. Mass. license?
Wynn/Everett? 93 71.54%
Mohegan/Revere? 37 28.46%
Voters: 130. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-31-2011, 12:31 PM   #101
CashRules36
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

We all know that Foxboro residents don't seem to want a casino. What are the temperatures in other towns?

East Boston?
Palmer?
New Bedford/Fall River?
Springfield?
Holyoke?

Any others?
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Old 12-31-2011, 04:55 PM   #102
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

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Originally Posted by CashRules36 View Post
We all know that Foxboro residents don't seem to want a casino. What are the temperatures in other towns?

East Boston?
Palmer?
New Bedford/Fall River?
Springfield?
Holyoke?

Any others?
From my limited knowledge

Eastie - Pols including mayor Mumble yes. Luke warm from residents

Palmer and Holyoke - resident don't seem to want it.

Fall River/New Bedford - residents want it but the South Shore is the only
location that the Indians have the right of first negotiation with the governor. NB ha pissed off the tribe and have threatened to go tho court to fight the tribe's special ability to negogiate.

Know idea about Springfield

I am hoping that Eastie doesn't get it. Way too difficult to get in and out. Traffic is a nightmare now nevermind then.
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Old 12-31-2011, 09:10 PM   #103
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

I live near Foxboro, so I definitely am pulling for a Wynn resort there. Though I can't imagine it not going to Suffolk Downs. The huge population and airport nearby, plus political influence, make it the obvious choice. But they definitely need to come up a resolution for the traffic. Maybe a new big tunnel? Ha!
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Old 01-01-2012, 12:45 AM   #104
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

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I live near Foxboro, so I definitely am pulling for a Wynn resort there. Though I can't imagine it not going to Suffolk Downs. The huge population and airport nearby, plus political influence, make it the obvious choice. But they definitely need to come up a resolution for the traffic. Maybe a new big tunnel? Ha!
Sure... we could call it the Bigger Dig.....
I think the trick would be to come and go at non-rush hours....
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Old 01-01-2012, 11:07 AM   #105
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

The proposed location in Springfield is horrible but it seems that Penn National is moving forward to close on the property for 16M in the next few weeks, not an option to buy, they're buying the property.

Holyoke has a location at a golf course adjacent to I-91 with a signed agreement with the Hard Rock. Really slim chance here to do anything IMO.

Palmer residents have already approved a proposed casino, they still have the usual vocal minority complaining to anyone that will listen. Mohegan Sun has had a storefront office on Main Street here for a couple of years now and is a constant presence. The proposed location is directly off of the Mass Pike exit and twenty minutes closer to Worcester than a Springfield or Holyoke location.

No one seems to realize that Mohegan Sun has exercised a lease option on this property nearly three years ago. They had an option for close to four years on a 99 year ground lease and pulled the trigger on it a long time ago. They are paying on this location for another 96 years!!! I'd say that's a pretty good indicator right there.
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Old 01-01-2012, 04:25 PM   #106
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

Lot's of mis-information from previous posters regarding Western Ma. Palmer is the most likely because they actually have strong local support and have been pushing for over four years to get it done. The problem is Mohegan dire financial situation, which may kill them.

All other proposals are relatively new. Penn National is not involved in the Springfield proposal as stated above, it's Ameristar, they are closing in on the land and have already hosted a meeting with local residents. Right now i'm hearing a lot of people on both sides so I can't really tell exactly what the local opinion is.
Holyoke has pretty much already shown, in the recent election, they are opposed. Every local candidate who opposed the casino won in landslides over pro-casino candidates. They do have what appears to be a good location and solid ownership/operation plans, but we don't know much further than that.
Penn National has said they are interested and looking for a site but have not said anything further than that. A property owner in Brimfield has recently been marketing his land, and is expected to make big announcements in the next few weeks.

At this stage, all proposals have pro's and con's so it will take a few months before we can say who the front-runner will be.
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Old 01-01-2012, 10:13 PM   #107
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

I didn't realize the Holyoke location was poor. Seemed to me it was right off 91. So Hard Rock isn't considered a "solid ownership/operation plan"? To me, Holyoke seems better than Palmer. Wouldn't it be easier for people from Springfield/Albany/Hartford? People from the East will play in the East region's casino.

I think a Wynn resort in Foxboro is such a slam dunk, it tilts me to no end that the people will let it slip through their hands. If other casinos fail, the residents will say, "I told you so," but Wynn is in such a different league that you can't even compare.
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:35 AM   #108
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

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I didn't realize the Holyoke location was poor. Seemed to me it was right off 91. So Hard Rock isn't considered a "solid ownership/operation plan"? To me, Holyoke seems better than Palmer. Wouldn't it be easier for people from Springfield/Albany/Hartford? People from the East will play in the East region's casino.

I think a Wynn resort in Foxboro is such a slam dunk, it tilts me to no end that the people will let it slip through their hands. If other casinos fail, the residents will say, "I told you so," but Wynn is in such a different league that you can't even compare.
The Holyoke location actually is great, and yes they do have a solid partnership with Hard Rock, which bodes well. The problem there is it appears that local support, which is required under the law, is not there. Once more details and marketing comes out, maybe that will change, but they recently elected a 22 year-old mayor, many think it was because he was strongly against the casino proposal.

Wynn is not a slam dunk, in addition to the local objection, they face other obstacles. The location is actually horrible. Ever been to a Pats game? Also, there is a very solid proposal in the works from Suffolk Downs, who is partnered with Caesar's. That location seems great, it's right in Boston and is close to Logan.
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Old 01-02-2012, 09:14 AM   #109
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

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Wynn is not a slam dunk, in addition to the local objection, they face other obstacles. The location is actually horrible. Ever been to a Pats game? Also, there is a very solid proposal in the works from Suffolk Downs, who is partnered with Caesar's. That location seems great, it's right in Boston and is close to Logan.

I didn't mean the deal being done was a slam dunk, I actually think it is a long shot. I just mean if it did happen, it would be extremely successful. I think the location is great. It will draw from Boston and Providence, whereas a Boston casino might not get the Providence people. There is a reason Wynn, the best in the business, wants to be there. Foxboro is more conducive for a luxury resort destination, then in East Boston. I agree traffic on game days is tough, but I don't think you can compare game day traffic to casino traffic. That being said, they would definitely need to come up some sort of plan for traffic.

Suffolk Downs does have the Boston/Logan advantage. And I'd love to have a WSOP Circuit event in Mass. But getting to East Boston is no picnic. Do they actually have enough land there if they plan to keep the race track?
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Old 01-02-2012, 09:09 PM   #110
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

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Originally Posted by CashRules36 View Post
We all know that Foxboro residents don't seem to want a casino. What are the temperatures in other towns?

East Boston?
Palmer?
New Bedford/Fall River?
Springfield?
Holyoke?

Any others?
Unfortunately, none of these are any good for me. Might as well keep going to Foxwoods or the Mo.
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:28 AM   #111
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

If there are 3 casinos closer to boston, and proposed casinos open in NYC area+ plus any fall out in northern NJ....foxwoods will be an afterthought.

How long until casinos are up and running in MA?
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Old 01-03-2012, 12:40 AM   #112
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

Well they are expected to have the gaming committee appointed in March. At that point, they will begin setting up the gaming commission and setting up rules which potential operators can use to complete there proposals. From there, each company looking to make a proposal must reach a host agreement with the local communities. Once that is in place, the proposal can be brought to a public vote. Any proposal that gets past this point, can be submitted to the gaming committee which will then decide who, if anybody, wins a license.
So basically, there is a long way to go. Realistically, it could take 5 years or more before we see a casino accepting bets.

Also, yes Foxwoods will be significantly weakened by increased competition, but keep in mind they have like 3,000 rooms and an established player base. Any of these MA casino will likely have less than 1,000 rooms, fewer tables, fewer slots, fewer restaurants & clubs, and fewer overall amenities. Although if they get hit as hard as it seems they will, I can't imagine how Foxwoods will be able to keep everything up and running.
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Old 01-03-2012, 06:06 AM   #113
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

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Realistically, it could take 5 years or more before we see a casino accepting bets.
A very thoughtful post, but I must take issue with the quote above. Time is money, and it's in NOBODY'S interest to drag this out for anywhere close to five years. Not the gaming companies', and not the state's. No one is talking about building a 5000-room MGM Grand Hotel, Casino, and Theme Park. It's only a 500-room Sams Town Tunica, for Pete's sake.

Unless you've heard some expert say "up to five years or more". In which case, you can disregard my (very biased and hopeful) opinion.

BTW, this discussion is exactly what I was asking for. Thanks, guys!
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:49 AM   #114
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

You are right, I do expect everyone to try and get the ball rolling ASAP, but I just don't see any opening in less than three years. While 5 years may be the long end of the spectrum, there is still a long way to go. This is Massachusetts after all, and with the scope of these projects, there will be delays.
The gaming committee only has a chairperson so far, the other four member won't be appointed until at least March. After they start working and giving the guidelines to the towns and casino companies, then the proposals can be finalized. That will require numerous public meetings, politics and other variables. Once the casino and the host community reach an agreement, then they can put it up for vote. It's not until the vote passes that the gaming committee even get's to hear the proposal.
Nobody knows when the deadline for proposals will be, or even if the state is required to accept any bids. So that plays a role. Let's say a site is ready and gets everything done in time for the November elections, they can then pass it on to the committee. However, if the committee is accepting bids until let's say May, they will have to wait until then.

Palmer seems to be a clear front-runner as far as having plans put together. They have already released renderings and specific details regarding the project long ago. In a recent article, a key Palmer official stated "I can't envision any scenario that would result in a vote by June". So even the most advanced proposal will not go before voters until at least July.

The chairperson has also said that he is open to awarding just one license as a pilot run before awarding the other two.

I would love to see a casino break ground this year, but that is absolutely not going to happen. (With the possible exception of the one slot's only license, I have no idea what's going on with that but I would expect that to end up at one of the race tracks.)
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Old 01-03-2012, 09:54 AM   #115
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

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Palmer residents have already approved a proposed casino, they still have the usual vocal minority complaining to anyone that will listen.
I just noticed this quote and wanted to clarify it. Palmer residents actually voted many years ago in a non-binding vote to allow a resort casino. They did not vote on the current proposal, site, or even Mohegan Sun's involvement and they had no idea how the legislation would look. I can't find the details yet, but I believe this happened in 1997 and passed by about 57-43. *Edit- "The majority of Palmer voters – 54 percent – supported a casino in a non-binding vote in 1997."
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Old 01-04-2012, 01:35 AM   #116
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

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Also, yes Foxwoods will be significantly weakened by increased competition, but keep in mind they have like 3,000 rooms and an established player base. Any of these MA casino will likely have less than 1,000 rooms, fewer tables, fewer slots, fewer restaurants & clubs, and fewer overall amenities. Although if they get hit as hard as it seems they will, I can't imagine how Foxwoods will be able to keep everything up and running.
As a pa/nj resident, this would be almost exactly what happened in A.C. after Del/PA opened their casinos. A bunch of little places but in more populated areas, hurt AC. True, some of that stems from a poor economy, but it will hurt.

As a poker player, not having people in one area, and turning poker into a daily thing instead of a "hey lets spend the weekend in A.C. and if we don't come back with the 1k we brought oh well" adventure is imo a bigger killer.

I think Foxwoods will be in more dire straits as it has no ocean or tourist friendly activities. And not just AC proper but you have to drive by to get to any south jersey destinations. Plus if/when both sides of foxwoods get open with casinos ???


thanks for all the updates everyone, it's been very interesting for an out of towner to read.
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Old 01-04-2012, 10:46 AM   #117
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

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As a pa/nj resident, this would be almost exactly what happened in A.C. after Del/PA opened their casinos. A bunch of little places but in more populated areas, hurt AC. True, some of that stems from a poor economy, but it will hurt.

As a poker player, not having people in one area, and turning poker into a daily thing instead of a "hey lets spend the weekend in A.C. and if we don't come back with the 1k we brought oh well" adventure is imo a bigger killer.

I think Foxwoods will be in more dire straits as it has no ocean or tourist friendly activities. And not just AC proper but you have to drive by to get to any south jersey destinations. Plus if/when both sides of foxwoods get open with casinos ???


thanks for all the updates everyone, it's been very interesting for an out of towner to read.
But by the same token, I think that MS will be hurt MUCH more than FW if the analogy holds. The Borgata has not been hurt anywhere nearly as badly as the other AC poker rooms have been. That's because the Borgata has kept aggressive comps and it has the most players, best game selection, and great tournament series. FW is probably the same--and will remain the same unless another very big challenger comes along--in New England.
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Old 01-04-2012, 05:48 PM   #118
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

The powers that be and with the politics in mass. anyone think that the first casino built and running anywhere BUT in the Boston area.
So Sufferin downs will be the first one to open if and when.
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Old 01-04-2012, 06:09 PM   #119
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

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The powers that be and with the politics in mass. anyone think that the first casino built and running anywhere BUT in the Boston area.
So Sufferin downs will be the first one to open if and when.
Probably true. And even if the process is completely objective, the larger population within a reasonable distance of Boston, plus existing very large Boston tourist traffic, mean that a Boston location ought to be able to outbid any other location in the state by a wide margin. (IMO, adding tiny Providence population to Foxboro location doesn't even come close to offsetting North Shore MA, S. NH, and S. ME., plus Boston tourists who aren't about to trek down to Foxboro; also, Providence is roughly equidistant between Foxboro and Foxwoods, anyway.)
Also, politics (and the law) dictate a casino in Southern Mass., and a casino in Foxboro would cut into that one a lot.
Really, they're going to have a process, but I think that when they drafted the legislation, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that one of the casinos would be in Boston. (I would never count out Steve Wynn and Robert Kraft, but it sounds like the town of Foxboro isn't going to go for it, anyway.)
The indians are a wild card here, but they seem to be focusing on Southern zone (Wampanoags) and Western zone (Mohegans).
If I had to guess, I'd bet on Boston, Palmer, and Fall River/New Bedford. But this is Mass., so we can all sit back and watch the fun...
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Old 01-04-2012, 11:40 PM   #120
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

Absolutely, if they can build one with great access in or close to Boston, it certainly has the potential to be the top revenue earner in the northeast, even greater than Borgata and if Revel succeeds.

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The indians are a wild card here, but they seem to be focusing on Southern zone (Wampanoags) and Western zone (Mohegans).
If I had to guess, I'd bet on Boston, Palmer, and Fall River/New Bedford. But this is Mass., so we can all sit back and watch the fun...
Remember, the provision which grants an exclusive negotiating period for an indian tribe is ONLY valid for the southeastern zone, where the Wampanoags would have probably eventually landed a casino anyway. The Mohegans are approaching the Western zone as a corporate entity and have no exclusive or tribal rights.


It's going to be an interesting couple of years. To be honest, i'm pretty surprised we have heard so little as far as proposals for the Boston region. I expected we would have heard something from just about every casino company by now.
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:13 AM   #121
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

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...Remember, the provision which grants an exclusive negotiating period for an indian tribe is ONLY valid for the southeastern zone, where the Wampanoags would have probably eventually landed a casino anyway. The Mohegans are approaching the Western zone as a corporate entity and have no exclusive or tribal rights. ....
I believe that this is correct as far as casino bill and exclusivity go, but, as you imply above (and AFAIK), any federally-certified Indian tribe can still open a casino on their own land (after getting it declared a reservation), in states which have casinos. (I think this was the original reason for the Southeastern zone Indian exclusivity in the law; it was clearly aimed at giving the Wampanoags a clear shot, also at getting them to ditch Middleboro and move to someplace more politically desirable) (Fall River). So I believe that if the Mohegans' bid in Palmer fails to win, they can still try to open another casino there in addition to the winner, after negotiating with the state. So if the state really wants to limit the number to three, this would seem to give the Mohegans an advantage in the Western zone.
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Old 01-05-2012, 12:26 AM   #122
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

While I am not sure what the regulation are when it comes to tribal land, I find it hard to believe that the Mohegans would be able to get land in MA in addition to their land in CT.

Also, I am not sure how the legislation works, would the casino bill give the state total control over gaming, making it impossible for a tribe to circumvent the state?
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Old 01-05-2012, 01:29 AM   #123
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

Indian tribes have to obtain land in their original tribal lands, which is just about anywhere cause they were far and wide, to be able to put it into trust with the federal government. Any additional lands must be connected to this land to be able to be put into trust. Casinos can only be built on trust land. So Mohegan has to go through the precess like all the other companys.

Interesting to me, is if they fail to negotiate a compact and open up the area under exclusivity to the Wampanoags, to a company other then the tribe, you could have four full casinos. They can't stop the Wampanoags from opening up, even if they fill the three licenses without them. The Tribe can open any type of gambling allowed by the state, and the federal government will step in and make Mass negotiate a compact.
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Old 01-05-2012, 05:37 AM   #124
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That what I had assumed thanks!
Anyway, if three resorts were to be opened up throughout the state. Would the Wamponoags even bother to open yet another one? Wherever they put it, there going to be blocked out by the other five NE casinos. How eager would their Asian financiers be at that point to get involved?
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Old 01-05-2012, 11:22 AM   #125
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re: New England General Discussion - Poker Room List in OP

Good thread. All this casino talk seems to be heading in a great direction. Like everyone else here, I'm definitely looking forward to no longer having to drive to CT just to find a halfway decent live legal poker game.

Lets hope there's a Caesars/Harrahs property at Suffolk Downs and/or a Wynn Resort in Foxboro soon! Both of those companies are very poker friendly. We can count on them not neglecting to include a large room in whatever they may build.

Earlier someone brought up the issue of traffic getting to Suffolk in Eastie. Well, the kicker for me is that I (like most greater Boston residents) could take the T to East Boston! It's right on the Blue Line and is so easy to get to not just from Logan but really anywhere in the city or even anywhere on a commuter rail line. Forget driving to the casino, millions of residents will be able to just take a 10 - 50 minute trip on public transit! Also I believe that if/when the time comes to vote, residents will step up in favor of the East Boston location.

I also think that once either of these proposed Boston area resorts is operational, Mohegan and Foxwoods will be toast.
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