Wynn can help a decent room. It creates new players in the area. There has never been anything within an hour drive of this area to create growth of poker players on a widespread level. It's been through casinos hours away, rooms with underground type feel, or on-line.

If there is a local room with casino like amenities they can easily have a thriving business. Will a recreational player looking to play just a few hours want to head down 93 at 5pm on a night when there is Red Sox, Bruins or Celtics game? Will the guy that is just playing for the afternoon want to be part of traffic north at 5pm? Wynn isn't a 20 minute ride 24/7.

With more players being introduced and a casino quality room the local rooms can thrive.

It'll be interesting to see how this effects the poker economy. Right now I'm of the opinion that its pretty spread out but solid. There is enough of a cash and tournament scene to keep a few different areas relevant but I think how everything looks once the Wynn opens will change.

Here is how I envision the various games looking (i'm focusing on North of Boston)-

1) $1/2 NLHE Cash :
The 1/2 games will exist in most rooms. I agree with the poster above that the average $1/2 player will stick to the room and the game they are most comfortable with. They'll stick to whichever game is closer and aren't going to go out of there way routinely to play at another location. That said, I think there will be a good portion of players who will travel to the Wynn on a non-routine night/weekend as it allows. So you'll see some portion of the local player base at the NH rooms and elsewhere palying at the Wynn but you will rarely see the opposite. This is going to create times where there are just a few nitty games running and it'll turn people off to a slow room.

2) $2/$4 NLHE

I'd be very suprised if this game even runs at all after the Wynn opens. It's going to take a very special room to keep the player base. In this game there are really two types of players. The first player type wants to play where the money is. They gravitate to the biggest game within reason and don't want to be elsewhere. They love the action. And all the action is going to be at the Wynn. In Vegas (correct me if I'm wrong) the Wynn has a $1500 cap for $2/5. $1/3 has a $500 cap. We aren't even counting the $5/$10 that is gonna be drawing people. So any action player flows to where the action is.

The second player type is the one is under the impression they are actually good poker player. They love the loose action players and think they are better than the assortment of regs in the game. Whether or not they actually are any decent doesn't matter. They want to put themselves in the best game and the best games are going to be at the Wynn.

So I think both these player types will be at the Wynn almost exclusively. There will be some weekend action in NH but not enough to keep a regular game going.

Tournies :

I imagine Wynn is going to have some really nice weekly guarantees. It won't kill all the action as lets face it there won't be mayn under $100/MTTs and during the week traffic and drive time and getting out too late all factor in. So you'll see the occassional decent MTT and maybe they'll even run some decent two-days. But are you really gonna not want to hop in that $150 30K Guarantee running every Saturday? What about the first ever WSOP/WPT/Clam Chowda Poker Series?

PLO/PLO8/Stud :

This is all at the Wynn. A variety of games and limits will be spread so anyone with these games in mind will have one option to play.


Thats my take. Everything is gonna move to the Wynn and the charity rooms are going to have to step there game up to attract anything more than a small MTT or 1/2 game.

I am irked by the misspelling of irks as "erks". And my period is outside......

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the rooms in the southern part of the state just give up the ship. Can they survive on 2-3 tables of 1-2 and lightly attended tournaments? Seems tough given the cut the state/charities are taking. I live north of Boston and I know I'll never set foot in NH once Wynn opens.

And TBH, maybe it's a good thing. The state is abusing the player base with the huge rake. I can play in "underground" games with a smaller rake. If all that income dried up maybe they'd change their ancient gaming laws or even allow a casino in the state.
I won't hold by breath though as the state seems to revel in making stupid decisions.

I think you misunderstand rake in NH rooms. Players pay very similar rake to Foxwoods and other casinos. For example Manchester is 10% up to max $5. Not sure what underground games you are playing in that are lower.

The state abuses the operators (not players) of the room with taking 10% of that, and a requirement an additional 35% goes to charity.

As far as rooms being able to survive on 2-3 tables of 1/2nl the economics suggest it's possible.

1 table playing 12 hours a day for 360 days a year averaging $3/hand rake with 30 hands per hour equals $388,800 a year. Subtract the charity portion and state tax and that is $213k.

Two tables $426k
Three tables $639k

Now after expenses that is hardly a goldmine, but still surviving. But imagine if they could attract 6-8 tables.

Good example of how: Right now the Bad Beat Jackpot in Manchester is $100K. It is $51k in Foxwoods. If this is something that attracts a recreational player do you think they have a better chance of hitting it in a room with 8 tables running, or a room with over 30 tables running. (oh and Manchester is quad 2's or better beat, and Foxwoods is quad 8's.)

A room can survive with 2-3 tables. A good room can thrive if they can attract more.

FTFY. There's nothing charitable about required "giving."

Moreover, that 10% tax to the state and 35% to nonprofits is most certainly coming out of the players. Just because it doesn't stay with the cardroom doesn't mean that it doesn't force the business to charge higher rake, cut back on amenities, pay employees less (resulting in worse service to players), set up shop in a place that is less convenient/safe/appealing, use cheaper equipment, forgo improvements, etc.

Rest assured, the state is abusing all of us—businesses and players alike—by shamelessly squeezing all of that money out of poker.

States like MI, WA, and MT have small charity poker rooms, 1-3 tables. No reason that every room has to have 15-60 tables.

Only in New England do these locals refuse to look at how other states do things, but feel the need to reinvent everything. I can't wait to watch the new Massachusetts Gaming Control Board in action.

The question was about rake. Rake in New Hampshire is not high.

Of course taxes on a business affect quality of product. You also don't need to explain how free drinks at a casino aren't really free.

The thing that always has bothered me is the Live Free or Die stuff..... In MA, when Romney came thru.... he increased the fees on everything, from basic licences, to permits, to copies...by up to 500X, then he cut the workforce that processes all the services that you pay fees for by 90%. Surely there is gov waste, but JM&J, some services need people to carry out the services your jacking us for....

sidebar: love these points of info.... A state permit I needed for a project...very detailed, elite lawyer status with support staff to process.... and very detailed and time consuming. HUGE DEVELOPMENT FEES and Regulatory Filings, real involved and needed in every community.... pre Romney and the massive fee increase, 50 employee staff, and it took 4-6 months to complete. After Romney, and huge fee increase..... employees cut to THREE !, YES THREE employees, yet with same workload. New time needed to get permit: 1-3 years.......... aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa #killmeplease

EDIT: YES, STAFF CUT FROM 50 TO 3

How is 25+% more than the industry standard not high rake? (And this isn't even counting Rock's $6 cap, since it just closed, nor does it address The River's "Grinder's Challenge" $1 drop at $20.) Especially considering what players get out of it—essentially just the operation of the poker game—it's a total ripoff.

Anyway, my point was that the policy amounts to abusing the players, despite the fact that the businesses are responsible for making the payments.

You make it sound like extortion. They knew the rules and decided to set up shop.

I make it sound like what it is. If you try to run a poker room in NH without paying the state's 10% and the "charity" 35%, the state will use force to shut you down.

The case for forcible taxation is a separate issue that I won't argue here, but you can't honestly call that 35% "charitable giving." There's nothing charitable about writing a check under threat of armed men dismantling your business. That's not giving; it's taking.

its the rules established by the state, and everyone knows it before the game starts of the business opens. No different than permit and the states "Impact Fees"

Jim; if you think the cost of business is daunting, I'm pretty sure you don't know about impact fees in NH.... if you don;t, put away all firearms before you find out about them....

PS: obv room operators are not thrilled with passing the cost along...it is what it is tho, and I doubt its ever going to change. Charities get too much now, no way that's going back...

In my eyes, that's no different than saying someone volunteered to kick money to the Mafia by opening a pizza shop in New York. It's essentially a shakedown either way, but the Almighty State gets to obfuscate that fact with fancy terminology and democratic trappings.

Reading about "impact fees" right now. They sound like a roundabout way for the state to set a high barrier for entry to new/growing businesses—and, of course, to take money from people by force, but that's always a given with government.

every business or people that build, even a new single family home for themselves, get crushed on the impact fee. Commercial developments.....six figures

And then the same politicians who green-lit the extortionate policies shrug and hand-wring when asked what they're going to do to decrease unemployment.

Live free or … y'know, don't.

I highly doubt tables will average 30 hands an hour, probably closer to 20 than 30.

This brings up something that maybe Puck (or someone else) can opine on - why has there never been rooms in areas like Lebanon or, for that matter, anywhere north of Keene? I get that it's more rural there, but you'd also perhaps attract Vermont folks (White River Junction in particular) who have zero in the way of gambling options. It seems to be ripe territory for a charity room, no?

Fair, but if it takes that long the rake is probably $4-5. So I think the numbers are close.

Jim the reason poker exists in NH is it takes advantage of rules created for charities. These rules were created to allow monte carlo and bingo type fundraisers years ago.

Once poker took off 12+ years ago it grew. As it grew the one part that hasn't change is this was suppose to be about charities raising money. Gambling as a standalone has been voted down several times.

So the choice is no gambling, or operate within current laws that permit charities to have gaming.

Obviously as poker players and operators it would be better if poker became legal without charities. That isn't even close to being on the radar.

Point of (almost) fact: Salem NH had a tiwn wide referendum on allowing a casino at the Rock.... It passed with 91% approval; yet, the Salem representative was the deciding vote that killed it at the state level, and now the local ZBA members describe poker rooms and it's patrons as sounding like we want to open a pedophile training center..... Wtf.... If there is a better mix of a complete cross of social and economic mix of people sitting togather and getting along, I WANT TO KNOW WHERE THE **** THAT IS ..... Getting pretty tired of people talking about poker and it's players being anything less than stellar people.

Side bar: typed from iPad at breakfast, if punctuation errors, FU in advance

Great reason why new rooms like the one you and Boston Billiards suggest are important to change image of poker in NH.

If you see a high end establish right on the main road of Salem perhaps it moves perception past the image of quasi illegal degenerates gathering in backrooms.

You and I just think about this very differently.

Public poker would exist in NH without the state government. It would exist because people would want to play, businesspeople would want to make money, and the two interests would converge.

It didn't exist for a long time because the state claims some ludicrous, puritanical authority to dictate that adults can't voluntarily play a game for money on private property.

Now, instead of outright banning poker rooms (and bingo halls, and monte carlo nights, etc.), they let them operate as long as the owners kick a fat piece up to the don and his associates state and its approved list of nonprofits. If you refuse, they will ultimately send their wiseguys agents to commit acts of violence, theft, and/or destruction against you.

If anyone else were doing this, it'd be a textbook racket. But since it's the state, people talk about it like it's a force of nature, an edict handed down from Our Supreme Masters—anything but the ongoing robbery that it is.

As a small business owner I want to give a fellow small business a try if possible---You hear that as I am buying cheap. So the smaller or newer the business, the worse the product? That's your stance? You rooting against me doesn't feel so bad.