You guys that lives in Macau...I would appreciate if you could tell me a little about how it is. You know, outside of the pokerrooms, how is life?

Thanks Thomas!

PS I am thinking of moving there, that is why I am asking.

DS How about the pokergames compare to Vegas? Where is the best value to play poker full time, Vegas or Macau? If one play NL 10/20 and lower?

Macau is a tedious place with little to offer outside of the casinos and brothels. Pollution is bad 50% of the time and only moderate the rest of the time. Stinking hot during the day unless you are sitting under the A/C unit.

If you don't speak Cantonese or Mandarin you won't make many friends here either as there are fewer and fewer English speakers to be found.

There are some nice buildings but you will have seen them all in 2 days.

Luckily you can walk into China or take the ferry to Hong Kong to relieve boredom, but even then.....

What to do outside of poker? Hmmm.... massages, eat, drink, nightclubs, sauna, bang, sleep.

Not a hell whole lot to do, take a 45min ferry to HK. That's about it. IMO.

Looks like I should change my plans then, and go somewhere else instead.

How about the value of pokergames then? If anyone can compare the value to the games in Vegas I can get a good picture.

I see now that i wrote NL 10/20 limits and lower in my erlier post, just want to clarify that i am talking about us dollars.

Can someone clarify for me, are you suggesting the Grand Lisboa staff are dishonest or just unaware of the correct rules? I am in a position to correct some of the problems but need to seperate actual issues from preference.

Bottom line is poker doesn't make a lot of money. Even when GL had a monopoly and 12 cash games it made less than a single sic bo table. It just wasn't worth a dedicated manager, hence the inconsistencies mentioned on this forum. There are several staff with poker experience but these tend to be more senior staff who are better utilised elswhere.

However, it seems there is enough disatisfaction that GL needs to reconsider its commitment to the game. I don't intend to be a regular contributer but I can assure you that any messages will be read and where possible changes will be made.

I would suggest if you have any serious problem while playing you ask to speak with a gaming shift manager. There are usually four on shift and one other more senior manager. Often one of these will be an overseas manager who will be familiar with poker.

We would like to improve the product and certainly there is an obvious need to do so. Hopefully though, you all will be realistic enough to understand that the options are limited given the revenues that poker generates.

Finally, as the posters here are from a small distinct group, that is either expat or English speaking Chinese, can you tell me in general if you would play in GL if the improvments were made. Some managers at GL have the opinion that most of the poker players are of a background that would lead them to prefer a western style environment/facility and therefore any change or improvments will not bring a reasonable ROI as they are less inclined to play in a "Chinese" property than a "Western" operation. Is there any truth in that view?

I am going to take the defense of Grand Lisboa here.

I've played there last 2 times I went to Macau, including 6 days during CNY, and always enjoyed it. I'll list a few comments on the room here:

Games:
- soft as hell, majority of players are Chinese who have little experience with the game, sometimes brand new off the learning table, and big gamblers that will give you there money with a smile because they played 2 hours with their 10 grand when they would have lost it in 2 minutes at roulette.
- a couple regs from Macau, HK, Korea and Japan, better players and tight, just waiting for their hand (same I did for a nice profit)
- some collusion I saw was not intentional, more like unaware of the rules. Nothing that really bothers me, dealers usually told the players what they did wrong and if not I would do it (need to speak chinese for that)

Dealers:
- They are still inexperienced, and frankly I have not seen any improvement in between Nov. 08 and CNY. Dealers were the same. They need a crash course in dealing and rules and learn how to enforce the rules an be respected at the table. Other than that they are really nice and friendly (maybe too nice, and this is why players might take more liberty at the table)
- One thing that annoyed me was that sometimes a dealer comments the hand in progress (guessing player's hands out loud) or commenting a play after the hand is done. Deal and STFU please. Though I have seen this in Wynn and Starworld too.

Room:
- The room is open on the casino floor though separate and brings a lot of 1st timers tourists at the tables, that can't be bad. It's big so it doesn't become too smokey (i don't really care, I smoke).
- there is a lot of space in between tables which is really nice compared to Wynn where you have to walk on people to go to the bathroom.
- I like the chips there, real heavy and coulorful, easy for counting a player's stack, and easy to stack in one huge pile to push in the middle (love doing that)
- I don't like the tables. The felt is too hard and it makes it difficult to grab a corner of your cards to peak at them. Wynn tables are much better (except for the bar under the table to put your feet on that is too high for a tall guy like me, my knees don't fit)
- The chairs a comfortable for a short session, but sweaty after a couple hours (leather chairs). I'd change that.
- Big screens all around the room, which is nice, but the huge screen that everybody looks at always plays the same pstars video. I've probably seen it 50 times now and it pisses me of. put espn up there or a wider selection of poker vids.

Comps:
Drinks are good, but food is dreadful. Get some better free sandwiches. other than that the paying food is ok, and the casino is full of good, cheap places to eat.

That's all I can think of now.

Sorry, that's a different manager. I had the day shift over the weekend. Also i'm taking a month off from work because I am getting married. Hopefully you'll all support the room and everything goes well while i'm gone. Your more than welcomed to pm me anytime if you'd like to ask questions, i'll try my best to respond quickly.

Happy feeding everyone, fishes are always live and fresh in Macau.

Other than the really boring social life in Macau, poker games are really really good. I've seen players in our HKD 100-200NL game which is equivalent to a 10/20US game make US 50-100K in one session. Not many games in LV or any other states can you find deep stacks like that with full of fishes. But just to warn you, there is no such thing as poker etiquette in Macau, so don't get offended of the 2 minute slow roll and hollywooding every hand. I say just laugh it off and take their money.

As a local HK guy myself, I would choose not to play in any Mr. Stanley Ho's properties for any games. He has treated his customers really bad for years, which is what he is famous for, and there is just too much nasty things going on in his casinos compare to others.

I stopped going to GL because there's no action there. I actually like the property and would go back if there were any action. I've never had any problems with dealers/floor/staff at GL that couldn't have easily happened somewhere else.

The thing that pisses me off about GL is how they try to nickel and dime tiny transactions. For instance, ATMs are capped at HKD$1000 per transaction with and charges an absurd fee. Seriously, WTF is that? It's a casino that doesn't want people to get cash? If I order a free drink like soda or coffee they serve it in a tiny glass. Would it really hurt the bottom line to give me an adult sized glass like every other place in town? And some drinks, like iced-tea, are not free. Why? And there's 100 more little things that, when added up, make me feel like I'm getting ordered around at GL even though everyone seems pretty nice on an individual basis.

Thanks for the comments jude9x9

I notice several comments concerning the skills of the dealers. I would have thought that they were able to deal as many hands per hour as any other property given that they have been dealing the longest? I understand that they have a lack of understanding of the game itself, unlike poker dealers in many countries they don't seem to have much interest in the game which doesn't help. The only solution seems to be to have a dedicated room manager to ensure consistency. We will have to consider this.

As for the equipment, we actually increased the underlay but it is obviously still not sufficient. The chairs have been mentioned and I will bring this point up with management. I think cloth rather than leather and swivel, offoce type chairs seem to be preferred.

Better free sandwiches. I would be banging my head against a brick wall. Again difficult to justify special treatment for poker players when the main floor have the same and spend more money. What about the Chinese style snacks? Are they as bad or is it just that they don't know how to make a ham & cheese sandwich I will mention it in general, though cannot get anything done if its just for poker. F&B is not in my control so I'm not hopefull with that one.

Take your point about the big screen, though why any of you would want poker videos in the first place is beyond me. If there is any sporting events on espn or star sports and you want to watch just have the Pit manager call the Shift Manager, they will arrange it.

What about spectators, some people like their girlfriends to sit besides them. How many other players don't like to have another person looking over their shoulder? We can allow it but am not sure how many people would be against it. Same with buy ins at the table. Easier but slows the game. Half of you want some changes, the other half doesn't. Either way we upset people.

I will pass on your comments to the relevent people and hopefully we will be able to improve in the near future.

The ATM machines are controlled by the bank so unfortunatly I don't think it will change. I believe you are talking about the period of CNY, usually you can take more than 1000. I think the bank was trying to get as many charges as possible. I agree it sucks. I'm not sure if it was only the Seng Heng at GL or all ATMs controlled by tha bank. Again I will bring the subject up for discussion.

The drinks, I will add it to the crappy cheese sandwich list for the F&B management.

I am an expat and so far I have enjoyed playing at the GL. The Chinese environment is even a plus for me. I think a lot of the complaints that have been aired were caused by some misunderstandings originally. Chinese is often spoken at the table and for those who don't understand it, it might feel like they are being excluded or being coerced when it's not the case.

They don't get that many hands per hour (I didn't count though), sometimes dealers take time in between 2 hands to chat with players about the previous hand, you really want to tell them "let's go already!".

My point exactly

This is not a big issue especially since if you want something quick you can go to the sandwich place downstairs that has great sandwiches in the HKD 60-80 range.
I agree with the guy that said glasses were to small. I drink a fir amount at the table and find myself ordering every 10 minutes.

We love the game and can;t get enough of it!

No spectators sitting at or close to the table! I don't mind letting people walk around and watch for a while since some will eventually think "this looks fun, let's drop a couple grands trying to understand the game", we want those But leave your girlfriend at home please.
I don't mind buy ins at the cage, it's a 20 steps walk anyway

Nice to have sbdy from GL staff reading this forum.

1) "I want to see the hands" rule

I've seen so much "probably collusion" stuff when I've both been involved and not been involved in hands, that I'm sure that collusion is going on. When I finally got fed up and asked to see the hands in a spot where collusion almost certainly took place, I was told that I couldn't because I wasn't (still) involved in the hand. Since when is a 10% pot bet and an instafold not a good reason to have players open their cards.

2) Consistent rules

Why can some players wear hats and others can't? Why can people wear "prescription" sun glasses? Can they wear these sun glasses while playing the other games? If someone "forgets" to bring his non-tainted sunglasses, too bad. Inconsistencies like this are not acceptable and I think most players would agree on this point.

I've also seen rulings swayed by players who, while not involved in the pot, were clearly friends of one of the players who was. This is also unacceptable, and adds to the (probably real feeling) that at Lisboa, at least in certain situations, you're playing against a team.

3) Assigned seats

The floor should assign seats, and table change should need to be requested. This wouldn't eliminate the collusion problems, but they would probably go a long way in curbing them (along with "I want to see the hands" rule). Of course, if the floor decisions are continue to be as poor as they are now, this likely wont matter.

4) Experienced staff

Some of the ruling I've seen have been patently ridiculous. There have been examples of these rulings posted already in this thread so I wont waste time writing them again.

5) Elimination of exploitable rules

If a player goes all-in out of turn and the players to act before him check, he's allowed to check. If the players call, he's allowed to fold. This is very exploitable... let's say I have a draw. I can push all-in out of turn (especially if I'm buddy buddy with the staff and I'm sure that the floor will side with me) and if I'm checked to I can just check and get a free card. If my draw isn't good and I'm bet into after showing so much strength, then I can fold. Starworld also has this exploitable rule, but what makes it so bad at Lisboa is that on top of this horrible rule, you have inconsistent floor rulings, so if you go all-in out of turn (or call out of turn as in one of the examples posted earlier) you won't necessarily get your bet back.


Fix these issues, and I'll consider playing at Lisboa again - I actually don't mind the property - the restaurants there are nice. It's nice to see that someone is actually paying attention to the players' gripes

If you decide on office type swivel chairs, be careful as cheap ones will break easily with the type of traffic you see in a casino.

I agree that poker players do not deserve any special attention and unless management decides to improve the food served to all of the casino's patrons, don't even bother bringing up this point. To tell you the truth, the complementary snacks are not going to be the deciding point of which casino anyone chooses to play poker in while in Macao.

Here's an idea. NBC's Poker After Dark is a fairly popular show overseas. They allow people to view each episode on their website. Why not see if it's permissible to show it on your large screen. One problem I can think of is it's sponsored by Full Tilt and if rumors ring true, PS might not buy into that.

Only players sitting at the table. Allowing anyone else encourages discussion which breaks the "one player to a hand" rule. Buy in at the cage please. I do not know how management cannot see the clear advantage it provides in speeding up games. HELLO?!?! Faster games means more hands dealt which means more rake for Mr Ho.

We do have players buy in at the cage for exactly that reason. The problem is that they complain it is too far. At 4-5 metres I don't see the issue but its an example along with the no girlfriends sitting besides you rule that cause conflicting feedback. Whichever way we were to go would annoy some players.

Hats and sunglasses we hope to address in the near future. Currently the hats and sunglasses rule are to satisfy the DICJ. There should be no hats that obscure a persons face from the view of our surveillance systems. Sunglasses are allowed to those with prescription lenses on medical grounds. Does it get abused? I am sure it seems so to you all here but I am hoping we can solve this ASAP and bring us in line with normal poker customs. Yes I know other properties have done this, but as in other things, for example taking rake pre-flop, some casinos get away with some things, others do not.

Thanks you all for your comments. The people involved in the daily poker operation are aware of these and I am looking at the possibility of having one of our expat managers contribute to the thread on a more regular basis so that these and other problems can be resolved.

We will be training some new dealers so unfortunately that will bring some new issues though we will be re-training existing supervisors and attempt to bring them up to standard. We will try to make improvements where needed but I am expecting a 2 month timeframe before any realistic changes can be seen.

We will also consider reducing the numers of Pit managers that cycle through poker, again to try to address the issue of consistency.

In the meantime please post any comments or changes you would like to see. We will reply where we can though the fact is I would prefer just to get these things done rather than discuss them in detail and you see no immediate change. As mentioned give us 1-2 months.

I actually prefer GL to Wynn for the following factors:

1. No buy-ins at the table
2. I prefer the chips
3. More space between tables
4. Poker room closer to the main casino. The Wynn's feels like its been shunted to the far far wing of the casino.
5. Better ventilation due to less crowding.
6. Actually the dealers has a better understanding of the poker rules. I had some bad experience at Wynn (example, I helped exhange some cash because a guy needed some chips. I took the chips from my pocket not from the table. The dealer then said those chips should be in play and I should "replace" those chips back on the table. I told her those chips where from my pocket, she insists she is right even though I knew shes starting to feel shes in the wrong but not willing to admit to it. BTW I speak canto so theres no language barrier)
7. Unlike some other posters I have not seen any collusions, cheatings, etc. But I have heard angle-shooting at Starworld, but these are done by the more experienced over-seas players. Angle-shooting is not something the Chinese players has learnt yet.
8. You can get special discounts for food if you order form the poker table. Pork chop buns for half the price if your ordered at the BJ table.

Of-course there are minus points but I think its unfair to read so many critisms of GL.

Whats with the poker videos? Totally not nessessary.

You want inexperienced players at the table. Sometimes you just have to put up with a little just for the EV. Have a rules and etiquette brochure ready to hand out to people. Most won't read it but it doesn't hurt to have something in black and white since the floor is consistently giving inconsistent rulings. Keep the list updated.

The hat rule: most of the Chinese don't wear hats. I want to play with a beginner from China not a nit foreigner. The poker room has to understand, the priority is to satisfy the newbies not advanced 2p2'ers. WYNN is doing well, the fish are more comfortable playing there. Starworld & Waldo is too intimidating for them to step in if they don't know what they are doing.

GL needs chip runners.

Collusion? What collusion? Some don't know what they are doing, please don't mistake that as collusion. A person not calling a bet thats 10% of the pot? So what? He might have 5 high after missing his 5k gutshot.

With regards to collusion I have to admit I don't think I have seen any at GL. If there is collusion, they certainly aren't very good at it as I have no trouble winning there unless I donk off my chips.

There are def. people abusing the sunglasses rule but I don't really care as I think shades are for donks, it's not like they're in a million dollar tournament where even I would cover up as much as possible if nearing the Final Table.

Chairs I don't have a problem with but I agree GL needs thicker underlay as it is sometimes hard to pick up cards or the bottom chip of your stack.

The key beef I have is the inconsistent rulings and the fact that the dealers/sups are easily swayed by the guy who complains the loudest. Increase their poker knowledge and give them the confidence to know that they are making the right decision, and call the Manager if necessary.

One example I would like to highlight happened last week. There was a side pot in play, then a player went all-in, with a caller, and the dealer started making change out of the main pot. When I highlighted this all of a sudden there were 3 people involved with 4 hands in there moving chips around and confusing the hell out of anyone who couldn't keep up. It worked out in the end but they should realise that they need to sort out any problem systematically so that players have confidence in the end result. I got the impression they were just trying to make sure that the Manager didn't have to come over.

Please, no girlfriends peering at my cards and no need for buy-ins at the table.

I have a swedish passport and therefore I get 3 months visa uppon arrivel automatic.

Does anyone know if same rules apply if I cross the border from Hong Kong as if I arrive to Macau by air to get 3 months?

Thanks!

Iwould appreciate if anyone could recomend where to live in Macau. My monthly budget for an apartment is 10 000 HK Dollars,

I want to live within 20 minuts from the best poker rooms if it is possible. Please also take into consideration that I am travelling with my fiance and son.

Thanks

I've only played at GL three times, and all three times I've seen collusion going on. The first time, three huge fish were playing, and like 4-5 regs came over and sat to their left. While there's nothing wrong with targeting the fish, there is something wrong with them showing each other their cards and talking amongst themselves. I was sitting to the left of the 4-5 regs so I didn't say anything at the time as I was also profiting a lot from the fish. Even when one player came over and took over another's chipstack, I didn't say anything.

The second time I played in GL I saw a couple of regs clearly trap a player and do the raise-reraise thing several times. Since it didn't affect me, I didn't say anything.

This last time though, I was probably the victim of collusion, although it's a matter of opinion of course. I saw the same two players doing the same sort of thing a couple of hands later, wanted to see the cards, and was told (by the players, not the dealer) that I couldn't see the cards as I wasn't in the hand.

It's not that I'm a donk as I have a very good winrate in Macau, and it's also not just me, as I've heard the same sentiment regarding collusion from many players. Maybe you happened to be playing at times when the colluders weren't out in force? Not sure.

Shouldn't be that hard to find a decent place for 10k HKD a month. What are your wife and kid going to do when you are grinding all day? It'll be very boring for them, I take it that your son isn't old enough to attend school yet. Are you confident that you will win enough every month? Seems like you're family is sacrificing quite a bit.

No, not just CNY, the ATMs have been like that as long as I've been in Macau. And GL is the only casino I know of that does this. Wynn and SW you can get $5000 from the ATMs. Maybe the bank sets the limit but GL allows them to do so, which nobody else in Macau does.

I don't think SJM has much respect for its customers. Companies like Wynn and LVS want people to come in and have a great time so they'll come back again someday. SJM just wants you to lose as much money as you can and doesn't care if you come back (because up until a few years ago if you wanted to gamble SJM was your only option).