Not sure if I ever mentioned, but another thought on this topic just came up in my head.

The extra part of the "equation" of how casino operators perceive poker is not purely related to table cap/profit per hour but also due to factors like these:

1. The non-Chinese operated properties still feel that they're operating on borrowed time, given their mistrust of Chinese business practices in general, hence the only investments that make clear cut sense on paper are in straight forward things like amenities, new land development etc. They could easily make larger poker rooms and sacrifice profits in short term to win in the long run by attracting a different type of customer. But it simple doesn't look good on financial reports and such decisions take a lot of willpower to make from upper management which are overpaid and virtually living a freeroll lifestyle until their jobs are secure. I remember having drinks with one of the Senior guys from Sands in Taipa, then they did coke with my housemate until 7am. Then he had to go for a business meeting at 10. That's just how "easy" these jobs are. And noone wants to be the scapegoat ultimately, potentially sacrificing the sweet spot for some poker crusade.

2. The Chinese owned properties purely have no understanding of how to approach poker unless it somehow benefits them directly like Starworld games in the past which were the initiative of a select group of their VIP players. Apart from that they understand that their clientele is different in general and simply don't have necessary expertise to run games efficiently.

The reason when they're giving out comps and vouchers for spending time at the tables also seems obscure. If the poker room is somewhat known and the amount of tables is limited no amount of "effort" is required to keep them occupied unless they're 100/200+ who 90% of general population won't play regardless. If someone cared to analyze the profit/hour based on different stakes across every day of the week and the demand for such games a clear mathematical model can be developed that is both more efficient profit-wise and benefits the players directly. But so far is the same lazy approach to add poker just for the sake of it.

Do hope something changes, but probably won't make much difference to me personally anymore, since I'm not even at 30% of ability of what it took to be properly profitable right now.

are there any sportsbooks in macau, don't recall ever seeing them before but then again i wasn't looking

also, is it the same type of slots found in the USA or different brands for the asian market?


those are two things i literally never ever looked at so am kind of curious about

Yea, they have a trashy alternative to HKJC called https://www.macau-slot.com/content/soccer/ and a separate one was used for betting horses but not sure if operating anymore. Most people just bet on HKJC regardless.

In terms of slots, the selection is pretty boring from mainly Aristocrat or IGT Australia manufacturers. There're virtually no "complex" slots or video poker etc. Everything just straight to business. No huffing & puffing buffalos on a billion lines with tons of options for free games.

When someone who plays semi for fun on the weekends says the games are unbeatable, that might be the case for them, but for someone who studies and grinds the game religiously might not be the case.
At least from my own experience, when you have a table full of guys in they'r late 20's and early 30's taking 15/30 seconds preflop to fold 72o from utg just to stay ''balanced'' with headphones/sunglasses, backpacks on they'r chairs, drinking water and eating salad that they prepared at home, those games don't last long, if possible people switch tables/move down stakes or call it a night immediately. Of course that doesn't kill the action over night, but if that's the case almost every night, eventually people would stop showing up, at least the very best one's, so the fact that there are many places with many tables open 24/7 means the games are beatable, but you have to be A+ player to beat them, like everywhere else when it comes to serious money.
There are of course exceptions if rake is absurdly high like 10% uncapped, but as far as i know that's not the case.

welcome to macau

Drinking in the evening at work today so can spend some time to once again put it into perspective for people.

All of us, you, me, Vanessa Selbst, Sam Trickett at a certain point in life either made money of poker or still play cause we think it's beatable. Live poker is by default a "situation" where such "events" can be more prone to error, based on skill and other factors. You can study and be as obnoxius as a ****ing a camel in the Arctic circle. Games being "beatable" per se doesn't not mean you're making more than a minimum wage working somewhere else, while simultaneously wasting time, other opportunities. You sit, don't do **** basically, apart from using your brain and your ego gets inflated when making a few rational decision that worked out fine. And I'm purely talking about a solo guy perspective and never been working as a part of the team. I've been doing this since I was 17, playing illegally in bars till I was 28 travelling to virtually every location that had decent poker, apart from Latin America. You can get a brain surgery to be replaced by a poker computer, it's not going to make a significant difference in terms of your winrate when the game is so to speak "solved". And the opportunities for people who don't have it "solved" to sit down and play with you are minimal. That's why I always suggested every "up n coming" SNG "wizard" or some imaginary new "cash game pro" to reconsider their life choices based on that we're living in 2024. Most of these people just typing random **** for attention, then when it comes to results they either write another imaginary **** that can be clearly read along the lines or disappear. An "A+" player is a very subjective term and everyone usually thinks that they're one. I've spent 12 years living this lifestyle, experienced being ****ed over by cheating, losing friendships through lending money, playing myself through different "eras" of poker development and if somehow someone's thinks they're "the ****" they won't be here on this forum talking about their dreams and aspirations. They would quietly keep being "the ****" and crushing wherever or just give up any notion of "grandeur" and purely share their experience once in a while for people to consider.

@Nordling89 If i offended you in any way i apologize, I posted my opinion, not claiming I know everything or that i can't be wrong. As far as trading poker skill and time for money it's relevant where you are located. For example in my case avr. income is around 1500 USD, so playing poker for a living makes sense. When i talk about A+ players i mean people who can beat 200zoom on pokerstars, which is considered to be one of the toughest games that runs consistently at the moment. Of course online u can play 1000hands per hour so even with small winrate you can grind out the variance, in live games u need big winrate otherwise you will be slave to variance for a very long time. As far as game being solved, people still punt, games got tougher thats natural but game is far from dead. Best players study GTO but only use it as a base line, when it comes to actual play they adjust to the game and exploit other players weaknesses. I read this thread while I drink my morning coffee, I value peoples input that they post here. Not here to fight with anyone.

No no no, there's no way I can be ever be offended in terms of my input. I'm a 35yo guy that gave up a significant portion of his life to build a family in this region. All the Macau **** just purely came as a collateral and me being excited about learning poker in the university days. All I ever want to "accomplish" with my posts is to try to give people who aspire to repeat the same lifestyle an in-depth detail of my own, mainly in terms of this region. I accomplished what I could and moved on. I have nothing to gain ever from what I message here, it's purely just a room for thought, based on a person's life who lived through it.

@Nordling89 Well like i said i really value your input, we might not agree on everything, however most of what you are saying i can either relate or agree. Era of easy money from poker is long gone, but imo its still a good way to make a decent living in most places. Maybe im optimistically foolish^^
However people shoudnt be scared of macau games, just because most people nowadays study solvers and use training programs dont mean all of them are good. Good example solver will tell you to bluff catch allin jam on the river X% of the time in certain spot, but in real life people almost never bluff in those spots. Solvers assume everyone plays perfect and give u counter strategy but in real life games no one plays perfect thats why if u dont understand why solver does what it does and u cant adjust on your own to the game you play, solvers are useless and even can harm your winrate. Most of the new generation follow solvers religiously and can't make any money because they lack experience while us oldschool players have more common sense, so dont be scared people of macau games even if the games look unbeatable thats probably not the case.
Thats my input

As far as I'm concerned, I already stated earlier, if you want to use it in a strict sense the games are not unbeatable. If you are enthusiastic about them by all means go and check them out yourself, like Nordling said we have all been there at some point. But there are reasons we have that stance that we have, it's not the same as in the US or even most of Europe, and some things that you say like table changes and stuff make it clear you've never been there and you don't yet fully understand the mechanics of these games and what you're up against.
Myself also, I have other reasons to be here, if it was just for the games I would have left long ago. But yep, Nordling is abs right, I mean you need to weigh your options. Poker does not have a very unique skills set that is needed, if you are that A+ player that you describe, nowadays you have various options that make more money with less pain. Also you might wanna consider Macau is not a place that is cheap to stay, you have to take that into account also. But it will def be a valuable experience. Good night from beautiful HK.

Plenty of unbeatable games run everywhere live and online, for eg go look at 100-200plo online exactly how many players have moved up from grind profits alone through those stakes in the last 10 years.. The number is close to 0 because after rake the game is literally unbeatable. As for live it's not hard to calculate how many hands per hour * rake taken per hand * number of hours. Let's just say it's 25 hands per hour $300 hkd rake per pot(for 100/200 and above that would be higher) and 8 hours that comes to 60K rake collection. Now ask yourself during those 8 hours did any rec(s) show up and lose more than 60K. If not then that game is not really beatable unless there are regs in the game with massive leaks as in reg fish.

Kups vs VPS, Finland League over 2.5 FT @~2.0, forget about poker. Enjoy Friday night with degenerate inside betting tips

Mandatory to listen to this meanwhile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBWhcPpdomo

@FWWM Fair points.
Anyways, I was looking for a recent poker vlog in Macau, could not find anything. Everything (in english) was pre 2019.
Does anyone know any vlogs from this year or 2023?

Only introverts can make a lil bit now they don't make vlogs

No need to thank a B-- player. I shouldn't be even doing this, but once in 14 years can give a free advice due to gin content in blood exceeds normal values...

Easy 1000hkd/hr even on lowest stakes. Nothing really changed in years. Don't listen to drunk losers, just play good exploitative poker.

Parisian is a very badly run room, same crew from venetian except now the room is hidden from main floor and doesn't get the fishes. Yet you'll get plenty of attitude from management and some dealers. The room traffic is dying by the day. Mgm has better staff but the casino also doesn't have whales and their rake same as venetian/parisian IMO isn't justified. WPT macau in June at wynn palace hopefully will make things a little better if cash games take off at that location..

Yea, absolutely. Considering your reputation for posting random contradictory nonsense of 18bb/hr pre-covid, then 7.5bb/hr but actually only started playing Holdem in 2022 but somehow got 5k hours in, as well as imaginary tales about hands/ruling and promoting some random ass coaching.

You're right in terms on "nothing changed in years" only in terms of delusional ADHD dreamers appearing once in an a while to have a chance for communication and fake ego boosting through lackluster, obnoxious posts and then disappear to the real world to grind their 12hr night shifts once someone actually is desperate enough to hire them.

@Nordling89, The carrot poker school MuayThai is talking about is legit, but it exclusively focuses on online poker. I also reviewed some of his threads, it was a bit odd why live grinder in asia is curious about online cashgames, however his strategy related post indicates he is not a newb.
When u said ''All of us, you, me, Vanessa Selbst, Sam Trickett at a certain point in life either made money of poker or still play cause we think it's beatable'' I think you have no idea how much meta game changed since the days Vanessa Selbst and Sam Trickett were top players. In 2014 i was crushing live and online, if i time traveled to present day, I would be a total fish, the only games I could beat now if i didnt improve, would be penny stakes online or 1/2 at my local casino on a friday night versus old guys who didnt improve theyr game in 15 years and who still think people who played on poker after dark, are still the best players at the moment. People who grinded 10-15y ago and stopped, are used to beat the game simply by playing better cards then theyr opponents, thats not the case now, at least when it comes to reasonable stakes.
10bb win rate that MuayThai mentioned seems right. Anything less then 5bb/100 you gonna have infinity variance in live poker, at 10bb/100 if u play 60 hours a week u might have shitty 2/3months were u break even, but nothing worse. And like i said in previous posts if games were that bad, that no one could beat them above 5bb/100 the very best players would leave, and this trend would go until games became better. And if they didnt get better they would eventually die, and since thats not the case means there is money to be made, its just a skill issue.

I wasn't saying any of coaching is not legit. Only pointing out logical flaws, due to his strange "aggressive" attitude.

The people I quoted were purely for reference, examples can be made for every "era" and "meta". "Meta" by itself is a wrong term when applying to poker, since rules of the games don't change. Only approach through people copying other more successful/fluid players.

FWWM summed up the situation quite precisely in terms of why games will run regardless of them being beatable and by how much. 5bb/hr sounds much more reasonable, can be even higher if playing as part of a team who have no moral values.

I'm not even gonna talk again about "starting poker in 2022" and 5k hours anymore. Out of the recent posts first he just randomly asks "how to get reads" in a live game, then doesn't contribute to anything in discussion and offers any additional details. Secondly posting a very "strange" preflop situation which supposedly should happen in Macau, since he's so "knowledgeable" and then abandons the post. You trust this person's statements?

Then he talks about being "balanced" in many ways, and then limps CO with KK... If this doesn't prove my point I guess we're just from different planets.

I didnt go into details, of course i take anyones statement with a grain of salt, like i said i found some of his threads odd but some of them seemed he knows at least something how things are. As far as poker strategy goes, game was almost static up to 2004 when the poker boom started, thats not the case, someone who was crushing online at 2020, would have difficult time now if they weren't constantly improving. Most value comes from small edge's, leaks that even winning players have, ect. no point to go into delays this thread is not for strategy.
I dont post my opinion here to cheer myself or to educate people who are out of the game for a long time, i just dont like when people spread misinformation in public spaces. You successfully transitioned from poker and im glad for you, sensierly. But its not easy, and in my case not much of an option, of course i could find a traditional job, have bacherol degree in finance and economics, however idk how relevant it is since for the last 10y i exclusive lived of poker. Also you and FWWM had good points about living expenses/location in regard to regular job income, ect. All of that is relevant and a value your life advices, but when it comes to how good or bad the games are at the moment, im sorry you simply lack competence.
I think this forum is the most popular place to look for information where and how the games run in Macau, thats why i dont want someone who is maybe in theyr early 20s trying to make it, read this thread and be mislead. Are the games tough? no doubt, wouldnt expect anything else considering the stakes, but to say that they are unbeatable it is just nonsense, especially from people who are out of the game for years.

No idea about state of poker in 2004, since I barely finished high-school. The biggest transition poker experienced in terms of strategy/approach to the game, at least in Asia came around 2015. After that you could feel a considerable influx of players, from online field who all had their flaws but eventually ironed them out in a year or so.

Nobody ever said anything is unbeatable, I've played myself last year, beginning of this year and projecting my results over the span of a year for example, I estimated it's 0/-1bb hour proposition, not taking in account all the accommodation costs. That is considering I had almost zero time invested in poker strategy or playtime over the course of the past 5 years.

The 20 year olds that are trying to "make it" will have to pave the road with their own mistakes. Other 20 year olds that are in the same "situation" aren't going to provide them with any knowledge whatsoever. Hence, the "benefit" of us "losers" is not to discourage someone to try and make the same mistakes we made at some point, but to try to save the few "weaker" ones from total failure and wasted years.

As I've said multiple times already, if you're the new Fedor Holz you will spend exactly 0 minutes on this forum ever.

@Nordling89 I never claimed to be elite, im just a regular grinder, interested in the poker scene in asia. Also it's good opportunity for me to improve my english. And people did say games are unbeatable or almost unbeatable, I just wanted to clear things. I agree new players should pave theyr own path and learn from mistakes, but they shouldnt be discouraged or mislead, by people who are not pros anymore. I just remember myself, If someone explained things to me 10y ago that i know now, my path would have been way easier and way more successfull. I also feel some people took my post as a personal attack, if you stopped playing seriously years ago, and had no interest to pursue poker professionally no more, there is no shame to be a fish in a high stakes game. And yes 5/10 usd is considered to be high stakes, especially if its publicly available game, you gonna have top tier players in that game unless its in the middle of nowhere.

The issue with poker that you can call yourself "pro" within weeks.

For people the definition of being "pro" is largely diluted by personal agenda.

Some can be a "pro" just living the lifestyle of gambling, some knowing they're breakeven at best just playing hands, some by looking some learning material from dawn to dusk, some by scamming others, some by team-playing, etc.

In the end every sane person wants to have certain return on their investment. I think we can all agree that pursuing poker in this era can be divided only in to two outcomes. Making small money "out of air" due to incompetent competition, being extremely superior to your competition by being a genius/lucky in high stakes live consistently. There's nothing else in between.

In actual high stakes where the table consists of a mix of players with their own bankroll playing for themselves, I would not consider myself a fish by any means. And that's extremely objective as I always am. But we're mainly discussing day to day grind of 50/100, 100/200 stakes in Macau. For that I perfectly well accept that I'm not a winning player anymore. And the reasons for it aren't always directly related to skill, even though it makes up 40-50% of it.