No need to beg; you wear the suit, just differ. Your rationale is once again house-biased (understandable), trying somehow to rationalize a rake that we the players know is too high.

What the over-priced tourneys are far more likely to accomplish than the quaint little scenario you paint here, is that they will empty out the pockets of those who play them, and they won't be in the room anywhere, in any tournament, in any live game, and playing neither loose or tight.

Do you play tournaments? You're welcome.

Jeremy

All this tournament discussion got me to wondering what every happened to the hour freeroll tournmanets that you talked about back in August?

If you do implement it, I just want to add that when Majestic had a requirement of 100 hours in a month, I found this requirement to be extremely high.

Personally, I think the requirement is too low. Gordon and me heads up?

From Rockford Charitable Games

CASH GAMES FROM 2PM UNTIL MIDNIGHT, SIT AND GO'S ALL DAY. SPECIAL $100+$20 BIG STACK TOURNAMENT OFFERED AT 2:30PM PLAYERS START WITH 11,000 IN CHIPS. PLAYER FRIENDLY 20 MINUTE BLIND LEVELS




I found one. I think I would rather play that structure.

If we are paying 10% every tourney for the dealers then should we still tip if we are in the money? I just dont know if that is fair. Though many dont tip, I have always felt that 2-5% was a standard tip. However I just think that it is too much especially for a 100 dollar tourney. Anyone else have feelings/suggestions on this.

I ABSOLUTELY wouldnt tip in any tournament with those add on features (nitty?).

Im primarily a cash game player and as a tipper im probably middle of the road....maybe even slightly above avg at times...who knows...
But I definitely tip hourly for sure even in the smallest games.

It isnt the 10% vig(which any smaller buy in live tourney is going to have folks) its the "add on" which is **wink wink nod nod** a built in toke for the staff....which BTW im fine with.


Speaking of the tournaments and their structures/payouts/value....

Where exactly is the structure listed on here...im only seeing starting chip counts and price/vig breakdowns.

Can we get the entire structure up ASAP folks if that is available.



p.s. The 30 dollar vig+tip(err bonus stack fee) makes the 100 dollar tournies a horrendous value but will undoubtably still bring in some folks...

I wont be playing them but let the market decide.

Overall I think tournies under say 200 dollars are just very difficult to do live and retain any value(dont blame Jeremy its basically mission impossible and to compare a first class casino with a real schedule with Rockfords traveling circus isnt fair to either operation)

......its just a losing battle unless the room is INTENTIONALLY losing money to bring more folks in ala some of the smaller/midsized/ out of the way Vegas rooms like the Sahara and Orleans do.


I would love to see 100 SNGs with a 10 dollar vig be subsidized by some of the promo dollars....not as something permanent but just as a treat for folks that have been paying into that fund.That and a free roll or frequent players tourney with no vig would be awesome.

A frequent players(maybe 40-50 hours per month) would not only reward patrons but would get folks who play both tourneys and cash games play more of whichever they least prefer and I really think you would recoup a lot of would you would initially layout in slightly longer hours at the tables from a lot of folks. It also be a great way to marginally increase traffic among cash game players like me......ala the day of the tourney.

A freeroll tournament is FREE, that is, the house runs them as a show of gratitude for it's players, and the prize fund comes out of their rake. Do you see this happening at the Shoe, Specs?

Still though, I had a very similar thought this morning: I would rather see the "promotional" dollar taken in the lower-limit games go toward a weekly "freeroll" for those players who have contributed. I understand that this would bring up a whole new set of problems, such as the shamelessly-selfish high limit players, finding one way or another to get into these tourneys, despite contributing nothing to them, as they did the free seat giveaway just a month or so ago.

Others would complain that they're contributing their dollars and are unavailable to play the "freeroll," etc., and they would have a legitimate complaint. There is no easy answer here, and Jeremy is correct to say you can't please everyone.

I've suggested this before, and I will again: If Harrah's really wants to at least feign appreciation for it's players, forget all promotions (they're bad at them, anyway), and raise the hourly poker rate on our total rewards card to $2, instead of the current $1. Food prices at the Shoe are too high for the card to be of much compensation. When I think of having to play 8-10 hours just to get a truly-pitiful excuse of a sandwich from JB's, my stomach starts to hurt, even before I eat the sandwich. I expect that after I eat it, must we suffer twice?

The buffet's food is perfectly acceptable, but at a cost of $22 during the week, and $33 on the weekend...I mean, is it reasonable that we have to put in three full days' play to reap the reward of one buffet? Compared to many major poker rooms around the country, this is ludicrous.

Harrah's is cheap, cheap, cheap, and I only wish Jeremy - if he is going to use this forum to communicate with us - would simply say "hey guys, this is Harrah's...what more do I need to say," instead of trying to soft-soap us with some oft-lame rationale, in his attempts to portray the Shoe as a casino that really cares.

I have no personal gripe with Jeremy. I think he doe an admirable job on the floor at the Shoe, but if he's going to try to convince us that the Shoe makes it's decisions with our good in mind, he's taking on one tough task.

I don't have an issue with the 80+20 part. $20 vig is slightly high, $15 would have been slightly low and $10 would have been "OMG GREAT DEAL". This is at least compared to Majestic.

I'm actually more annoyed by the $10 add-on, but I think I know where they're going with that. Tournaments traditionally result in less pay for dealers than cash games. The dealers have traditionally accepted that as a cost of doing business. However, if the dealers or the floor got together and decided to make dealing tournaments as lucrative as dealing cash, they might need the $10 add on. I would be interested in hearing how long these things last and how many players they draw so I can estimate what the dealers' hourly rate is during the tournament.

This is an excellent idea, but given how much money is in the promo pot, you're selling yourself short. These should be FREEROLLS. If Horseshoe has any way to hand out or mail tickets to players who put in the most hours, I think this would be a great promo.

Call me a nit, but if I play the $100 and take the bonus, the likelihood I tip a decent amount will go way, way down.

I completely understand the situation with the dealers getting paid less for tournaments. I think the $10 bonus is great way to ensure that the dealers will get relatively even pay making up for the fact that some low rollers do not tip, etc. I just would be a lot more inclined to *nearly stiff the dealers if I cashed big in one of these tournaments.

Let's say 100 people play the $100 tournament. I would guess 75 people (at a minimum) would take the bonus, since it would increase your starting stack from 2k to 3k for "only" $10.

$8000 to the prize pool
$2000 to the house
$750 to the dealers

Start with 11 tables. Let's say the tournament lasts 5 hours and say, 13 dealers are designated for the ENTIRE tournament, which obviouslt would not be necessary as tables collapse. That comes out to 65 dealer hours. That's about $11.50 per dealer hour assuming 75 dealer hours.

A more realistic calculation might be something along the lines of 40 dealer hours. This comes out to $18-19 dollars an hour. Likely comparable to a normal cash game dealer - figure $20-25/hour in tips???

I have no casino management experience, so please excuse if my math is off - it's used just for "look and see" purposes.


Personally, I will always, always, always take this bonus in tournaments for the 50% increase in starting stack in this situation. If I happen to win a $8000 prizepool tournament and receive, lets say something like $2500, I probably would not tip more than $100 since the dealers are already receiving a nice cut. Again, call me cheap, but with an "auto-tip" that most people will utilize that is built in, I see no need to tip above and beyond this number. I'm all for dealers making good money, but not if an excessive hourly comes at the cost of some of my profit.

I'm all for dealers making good money too, and therefore let me be the one to initiate a plea to Harrah's to give them a reasonable pay hike.

And in a perfect world the buy-in would be $95 + $5 and you got a $5 food voucher in return (or in coconuts case a hotdog).....

I'm not sure if I mentioned this before, the winner of each weekly tournament also gets a seat into the monthly $1500.

It was just one of the ideas we thought of awhile back for a promotion. I still like it and hope to use it some time soon. If we do it as described above and only do it with 40-50 hours in one month, we would probably have 300+ people in the tournament. We could not have this many in a freeroll tournament, which is in the room and in turn break cash games to have a freeroll. So I would guess if we did it, it probably would be around the 100 hour range to get 100-150 people. I know most of you that probably read this are in that 20-50 hour range and just because it is hard to get 100 hours would not agree with the requirements.

If we do decide to do it some time, I would be able to run reports from past months to see how many people we would have with different hour ranges.

I've played this one awile back, correct me if I'm wrong wasn't the blind level structure real fast?

That's funny how that is worded, is 20 minute levels player friendly?

Any freeroll tournament or giveaway most poker rooms have come from the promotional part of the dollar from the bad beat. This is how Majestic does their freerolls and I am guessing anyone else that does freerolls is the same way.
How could the higher limit players get in the freeroll if it was only based on hours played in the games that took the promotional dollar?

Do you really think that I could/should say that on here, even if I thought it? I know some of Horseshoe's upper management reads this some times. I would never downgrade an establishment where I worked in a public forum. Come on, they have built one of the best/nicest poker rooms in the country for us and you say they are cheap? Are you nuts or just coco-nuts?

What's the best lodging option for out-of-towners who want to come in town and stay for longer than a week? Renting a car at the airport and checking into the Ramada Inn?? Will there ever be hotel rooms on premise?

Wow. If this was mentioned before then I must have missed it. This makes a significant change in the analysis of the tournament.

To all the players complaining about the vig: This is live not the internet. The vig is in line with what is typically charged around the country. Check out http://www.allvegaspoker.com/tournaments.php to see the vig on all the tournaments in Las Vegas.

I'm wondering...if I should win one of the weekly tournaments, can I opt for the hot dog, rather than the seat into the monthly? Tell me I can, and I'll play.

I played it in once also a few months back. It's not bad in the beginning but it is fast later on (when they had 6,000 starting chips). I think it went like 25-50, 50-100, 75-150, 100-200, 150-300, 200-400, 300-600, 400-800?, 500-1000. etc.

There were antes at some point I dont remember when. But it wasn't too bad and with 50ish people I'm gonna say it finished in 4.5ish hours (I busted with 6 people remaining, so i'm assuming it didn't take long after I left.)

But with 2,000-3,000 starting chips, it would be a definite ultra turbo from start to finish unless you have some kind of sick structure like 10-20, 20-40, 25-50, etc. Basically, you can't lose 1 hand if played to the river because most likely it will take half your stack away (at 25-50). Assuming 25-50 is 1st level, 150 preflop, 300 c-bet, ill even throw a check on a turn, 5-600 river bet and there is almost half your stack with the blinds going up in a few minutes. And that is just the first level. Sorry just my opinion.

[QUOTE=Raise It;7745835] I just got done saying this in 1992, and now I'm forced to say it again: I stand corrected.


Really? HEY HORSESHOE UPPER MANAGEMENT: .l. (that's for no hot dogs, and for keeping the place frigid all the time. the list is a lot longer, but my finger's getting tired).

Silly me; I was under the assumption that they built the place for them. So sorry.

MBLAX, The problem isnt the two people at dinner its the one or two open
seats that seems to occure quite frequently during dinner time,and also later in the evening when games start breaking down. There is nothing more frustrating than having played 10 hours and now you are playing in a seven
handed game. Maybe it is because a seven handed game is the most profitable for the Horeseshoe. I HAVE PLAYED AND PAYED THERE RAKE AND
DESERVE A FULL GAME! Thats what a feeder game will solve. Maybe its time
a survey was taken to see what the majority of 2/5 nl players would prefer,
how about it Jermey.

If the "Freeroll" was showing gratitude to their players then all they would have to do to show that “gratitude” is go thru the total rewards hours played and pick the people with the most hours who are playing at the tables that take the promo dollars. The computer should show Harrahs everything they need to know. It surely must show what limit table you are playing, so that would eliminate the high rollers who do not contribute. Something could be posted (like they did at Majestic) with the names of the players and the number of hours played for the month. That way you could know where you stand against the other players. There would be no requirement of so many hours. Just take the top 100 or so player hours.

Jeremy stated that Majestic did use promo money toward the Freeroll, but I think this is a decent addition to the high hand promo.

It would also be a more honest tracking on the total rewards card because a lot of people cheated on their hours by getting a card signed at Majestic then walking or getting in a tournament and using that tourney time as time spent at the tables.

I actually experienced a real cheating incident on time played. This dude left the table and the casino to go home for a while - did not turn in his card - came back more than 2 hours later and played on the same card. I don’t think this can happen with the total rewards scanning us in and out and the dealers are supposed to show when you are walking by a blinking light.

Which brings me to another thought - Those scanners at the table are not always lit up. I have turned in my total reward card and the dealer scanned it, yet the light sometimes refuses to light. This makes me uncomfortable with that system.

If the “Freeroll was held at 7PM on a Monday, Tuesday or Thursday most people could probably make it. But like you said Coco - There is no easy answer here.

It has been my experience(and I have played both high and low limit games) that low rollers are very generous. In fact, I have heard more dealers complain about how stingy some high rollers can be.

I do agree if they are taking money for the dealers tips that you are not as obligated to tip them. If I win a tourney, it all depends on the circumstances and the dealer who dealt me the winner, whether I would give an extra tip or even the size of my tip.

If you don't know why this is a terrible idea, you probably suck at poker. I'd be very surprised if many of the better players in 2-5 would want a feeder game.

It seems we need a survey Jeremy to see what the majority of 2/5 nl
players would prefer, the current system or a feeder game system.

Jeremy - I really like that the winner's will get seats to the monthly $1500.

Does this mean the winner of every tourny, regardless of buy-in, will get a seat?
Are those entries transferrable?

Thanks