They still use those chips.

Quickest way to get a Black Card is to keep the Diamond card (get your last 1,687 points) and then show that to the Borgata when you need the Black Card renewed.

As for points at Borgata - 1/2 NLHE pays 1 per hour, 2/5 NLHE pays 2 per hour. So, 1,000 hours of 1/2 or 500 hours of 2/5 (or some combination of the 2) is what is needed for a Borgata Black Card through poker alone. I don't know about table games/slots there.

Lee

Good! Those are the best chips in AC imo. They're not as dirty as Taj, Caesar's, Showboat, etc., and they don't stick together like Borgata's.

I wish all the AC casinos would switch to those chips.

They definitely are clean....maybe that's why their harder to handle. The Taj has the worst chips by far, although the glue-like effect of the grime does make keeping stacks together easier.

I have 23000 tier points at harrahs this year. I called up to make a reservation for a monday and/or tuesday evening at the beginning of august, only to be told I had no offers for free rooms this month. Even though one of my offers was valid through the 6th, the supervisor at total rewards informed me that the room offer was only good for July. When I asked how it was possible that my offer expired the first week of August, but was only valid for the month of july, she had no answer.

I won't even get started about how they treated me in vegas, when my room was infested with bedbugs.

Harrahs can die a slow tortured bankrupt death.

End rant.

If the Taj's chips were clean (lol) they would be BY FAR the best in AC. Pretty sure they are high quality Paulsons.

/offtopic

I actually don't mind Harrah's chips....even with the metal insert

It's almost impossible to get a free room in the mid of the summer in AC. At 23,000 tier, you are still a low end diamond. I have heard that even a 7-star would hae problem getting a free room now.

As of HET, i am with you, i hate them.

I think if you are Diamond and book any room at Harrah's, they will automatically upgrade you to waterfront tower if you check in at the Diamond registration.

//offtopic

Agreed, I meant the worst as in the dirtiest.

/offtopic again

I am a gold card Showboat member and booked two nights at Harrah's (although recently reduced to one) for tomorrow about two weeks ago. I think those of you trying to get a room now are just coming around too late. They probably literally have no rooms since free room mailings went out.

My experience had nothing to do with rooms being sold out. I never got that far. There is a significant difference between - "yes, sir, you have an offer for the month of August but unfortunately we have no rooms available at this time" and "Sorry, sir, but you do not have any room offers for the month of August. Your next offer is for the middle of September."

Fortunately, with one phone call, Borgata once again showed why it is the best place to play on the east coast. Kudos to Stan and his team there.

you guys have to be lying saying u guys dont get rooms when u have a diamond card. i have a diamond card and i can get free rooms every weekend and i can get it comped for 4 days a week. only have 12k tier points

I have a Diamond card and I don't usually get comp rooms on weekends. You room offers aren't based on how many tier points you have, they are based on your ADT.

From my experience, it all depends on the day (and presumably what's available). I'd say I get the upgrade about 1/3 of the time.

But, then again, according to Litto, I don't have a diamond card . . . So, who knows . . .

the most important factors are what games you play (other than poker), how much you bet on average and how many hours you play as well as your numbers from your last comp.

7 Star players have no problem getting room nights. Including weekends and holidays.

Last year, as a diamond player, I had little problem getting room nights during the week (forget weekends) over the summer. I think maybe once or twice in August proved problematic, but mostly I got the nights comped. Can't say about this year, but considering how the numbers have fallen, I don't see why it would be a problem getting comped rooms if applied for well in advance.

Personally, I find that HET treats their poker players terrifically! I wish all casinos were this good to us.

Lee

Lee, with your Seven Card status, you have a fundamentally different situation than everyone below you on the TR Food Chain. Only Seven Cards guys really know what they can get, and what they can't. But I can tell you that the Poker Room rate at the Borgata is considerably less than Harrah's. The guest rooms are considerably nicer. The poker room is considerably better in every imaginable way. The Poker Room management continues to keep things moving with innovative tournament structures and access to the management itself for any conceivable reason. The food is better and more accessible. And the staff of waitresses is just stellar throughout the building.

When was the last time a steady stream of huge dust balls were steadly flowing out of the light cans above the poker tables at the Borgata for an hour, and management got irritated that almost everyone got up and walked away from the table? Never? How about at Harrah's? Oh yeah, 3 weeks ago. When was the last time water was flowing out of the ceiling and onto the players arms in their highest offered NL game? Never? How about at Harrah's? Oh yeah, that was about 7 weeks ago.

When was the last time a waitress brought a coke & wine to a guy at the table because he ordered a coke, and a glass of wine? OK, this has never happened ANYWHERE on the planet besides Harrah's...but you get my point. Harrah's DOES treat you very well, and deservedly so with your Seven Stars Card. But please don't confuse what you experience with what the other 99.7% of the Harrah's customer population is currently experiencing. It really isn't the same thing.

Some things people will simply disagree on. Quality of poker rooms, for example. I think that Harrah's has a fine room with, for the most part, excellent staff. No room has, again in my opinion, a staff that is totally excellent. Some Borgata floor folk have their faults as well. Some can be downright rude. Overall - they do a great job though. Same at Harrah's.

As for food being better and more accessable - please define your terms, since - except for the high limit area - one cannot eat in the poker room. Something that I do wish Stan would change.

I also prefer that Harrah's doesn't charge time for the 2/5 game, but rakes it instead. We all have our preferences though, and I certainly respect that yours are different than mine.

One thing I ought to clarify is that when I am talking about Harrah's I am usually not just referring to the one casino, but rather all 4 HET properties in Atlantic City. Maybe getting rooms is harder at Harrah's specifically than Showboat or Bally's. I don't know. But it's easy (confirmed by Diamond and even lower tiered players) at those properties.

As for me, last year - before I was a 7 Star - I was getting 4 or 5 (mostly 5) nights a week between the 4 properties. Mostly at Harrah's and Bally's. So this isn't (or at least wasn't) an exclusively 7 Star benefit.

I missed the dust balls. That was unfortunate. As for the waterfall - keep it a secret, will ya! Everyone is going to want one! Sheesh! Only the second room (other than Bally's, so far as I know) to have one! And Bally's hasn't had one in a year or more....

Seriously, leaks and such problems can occur anywhere. When was the last time that an entire casino/hotel complex didn't have heat and hot water? Oh, right - Borgata back in February. Cold days, they were!

Coke and wine - you mean in the same glass? That is funny.

Let's look at some other ways that Harrah's treats its players well. And I'm talking about your typical, average, regular. Not me.

Multiple comp days, lots of slot dollars, and lots of giveaways (everything from beach towls to George Foreman Grills, drink mixing machines, duffel bags, toaster ovens, cameras, ipods, cases for the ipods, tickets to shows, bottles of wine, hot plates, and I forget what all else.)

Harrah's comp dollars don't expire after 6 months of being earned. One can accumulate them and buy things like TVs, vacation trips, electronic gizmos, beauty supplies, etc. They are good in HET stores on a 1 for 1 basis, not 2 for 1 like at Borgata. And, so long as one plays at least once every 6 months, they are good forever.

Borgata can't match that. Doesn't even try to.

Does the Borgata have a great poker room? Of course it does. And, it is the only place in town to go for the really high limit games. Taj coming in second and no one else even close.

But - I don't see where the Borgata treats its players particularly well. And I do see where and how Harrah's does. That is all that I'm saying. And I've heard Borgata regulars - people who don't like playing elsewhere - admit as much. So, it's not just me.

As for me - I got the 7 Star card, and all that goes with it, just through playing poker. So have others. It is doable. Would Borgata ever give a Titanium card to someone who only plays poker there? Not a chance!

Lee

I like both rooms for different reasons. Borgata definitely has better tournaments and better game selection. But for regular low stakes NL cash game players, I think Harrah's has a lot to offer over Borgata. It is much easier to get comped rooms at Harrah's. You also get a lot of other comps, including slot dollars, free buffets, and random free stuff. I never get offers like this from Borgata. And if you have a Diamond card (not hard to get with semi-regular play), the guest rooms are actually nicer in the Waterfront tower than the standard Borgata room. And you can use the HET comp status you have accumulated in AC to upgrade to get free rooms, shows, etc. In Vegas and other casinos around the country.

Wow. A civil and well thought out conversation where two (or more) people disagree on 2+2?? What is the world coming to? CAUTION: Since this gauntlet has been laid down, my response is LONG. Skip it if you don’t care to read it. But you HAVE been warned…lol.

Alright Lee. I will try to give you my perspective on the points you have raised.

No question about this being correct, although I have only had one guy since I have been back that I find rude, and we all just laughed at him as it was more a "power trip" than actually being rude. And he was consistently barking orders at all of the employees the three days I was recently there as I recall. Perfect example was the brush calling a new game, players seated, chips bought, cards in the air...and the floor sees the game running 10 mins later and goes crazy, asking the dealer 20 times why they are dealing that game there, and that he didn't authorize it, and that there was no way the game was called by the desk to start there, and accused them of starting a game on their own. He had them move all of their chips and seats to a new table about 15 feet away. If you weren't at the table it was comical, but it was certainly a bizarre floor move to be sure. We used that as a basis for countless jokes for 5 hours that day.

That said, let’s not confuse a room with 600 players, with a room with 110 players with seats open all over the place, lists for every game, and floor personnel who don't care because they have been doing something else for the past 20 minutes. How does the biggest game in the room sit with 2 vacant seats, and an 8 person list for 20 minutes? How many times do you have to mention it to the floor at Harrah's before they get around to filling the seats? This is an everyday occurrence. Not a once in a while oversight. Even with you and your 7 Star card bringing it to their attention, they rarely seem to worry about filling seats as a high priority. I'm not in casino management, but it certainly seems like this would always be your HIGHEST priority. Don't get me wrong, the floor guys at Harrah's aren't incompetent or jerks, they just seem to be inattentive to the things that matter to players. And it’s very clear to an outsider that three floor guys will work to keep a local 1-5 stud player happy so they don’t have to listen to him whine, even when there are more pressing issues all over the room. The floor personnel at the Borgata seem to work more in sectors with each backing up other sectors close to them. Interestingly it is exactly how my favorite room in the country, the Venetian, works.

As for the food being better, all I can say is to walk around the various restaurants on the gaming floor and compare them to what’s available at Harrah's. Then if you want to compare the fast food options, go downstairs below the poker room and compare the vast (by casino standards…lol) food court to the 3 basic fast food options at Harrah's (sandwich and pizza shops by the pool, and the deli near the poker room) And now consider the crazy hours Harrah's has the Deli open, vs the food court below the B's poker room. If the deli isn’t open, you are walking half way to Delaware to get food from the pool area. Again, YOU don't always have to worry about being gone for an hour due to the 7 Card status, but the rest of us spend a lot of time looking at our watches when we get up for the 20 mins allowed. You aren't sitting there, so I am sure you don't realize it, but people complain about you being gone on occasion (usually Dave…lol…j/k), and it is clear that the floor isn't bagging and tagging your chips unless you are gone well over an hour. Specifically when I say the food is "better", I am referring to the quality and selection...I'll get to using comps in a moment.

Regarding food being eaten at the poker table, I must admit to being torn about this to begin with. I don't like watching someone eat chips, fries, pickles, burgers, and sandwiches and picking up their cards and chips. I often wonder what they are swallowing after they shuffle their chips for a couple of seconds, muck their cards, and then grab that burger again. I have eaten salads at the table before, and it is a pain in the butt. But with the 20 min pick up rule, maybe eating at the table is the only option at Harrah's. Having an hour at the Borgata allows the players to have some options. And the great part of the time rake is that it is rare to have a player gone for an extended period of time if they realize the time rake is taken whether they are there or not.

I'm not sure that I have ever decided whether a time rake or having the per hand rake is better for the player. There can be little debate about the aggressiveness of the Borgata's players vs Harrah's. As such, my guess is that the majority of the Borgata's 2-5 and higher players much prefer a time rake. Essentially appearing as a penalty for the tighter players. And I will also say that it is irritating to play during a half hour where you have a couple of BIG pots requiring major decisions, resulting in re-buys...and then as luck would have it you have the rack being filled. 1/2 hour goes by and you played 4 hands...lol. Over an 8 to 10 hour period, my guess is its a wash for the average player, but gives the poker room a more consistent income stream in terms of budgeting. It also keeps MOST players in their seats, and keeps to the locals from going on their walkabouts since they realize they are playing $10 an hour for their seat and only getting $2/hour (in the 2-5 game) in comps.

I'm going to concede this point to you because I just don't know. What I do know is that I get about 6 offers for rooms a month from Harrah's AC. I called a few minutes ago out of idle curiosity for the offers this month for the days of Aug 18 – 24 when I am playing at the Borgata, and NONE were available. I have never considered staying in the other properties, as I prefer to play where I stay, and I really have little interest in playing in the other properties you mentioned.

Lee, you have been a 7 Star guy since I first played with you 6 months ago, so I don't know how long it’s been since you dealt with the same HET "rules" as the rest of us. But the Harrah's world has changed considerably in that time period, especially in AC. My guess is it's the new sheriff for HET in AC that showed up in town a few months ago pushing some of these buttons. But consider just a couple of the most noticeable differences that you would never even necessarily be aware of, due to your 7 Star status. Start with the poker room rate moving from $109 on Fri and Sat, to $159 Fri and $199 or $209 on Sat. Consider the crazy drink structure at Harrah's. Heineken is ok to order, but Heineken Light requires a diamond or 7 Star card? I don't drink either and actually never drink when I play poker anyway, but I do laugh every time I hear a waitress tell someone that they need to show their card before they are allowed to order the drink they want.


You win this one. Free stuff is better than no free stuff. Admittedly, you have to be at Harrah's the right weekend or weekday to get any of it, but free is free. (You're there every week, so you get all of it...lol) But truthfully, the “free” things I have been offered were pretty useless and cost less than a min open raise on the 2-5 table to begin with. Maybe the "stuff" gets better during the cold winter months. Maybe higher level cards get better "stuff". But the only thing I have found interesting were the slot dollars, and again, we are talking about $15 or $25 and when I think about it rationally, while it is FREE MONEY, the amounts are so minimal compared to basic pre-flop bets in a 2-5 or 5-10 game that they are really meaningless. I'll take it if you're giving it to me, but it certainly isn't a reason to pick a venue in my opinion. +EV to take it if they are offering it. –EV if you are picking a room based on a $15 giveaway.

True enough, but you can always put on more clothes to get warm. Consider Caesars AC issue last month...lol. But this isn't what I am talking about. I was speaking of an insane amount of dust falling for an hour onto the players, into the air, onto the chips, onto the table, and into the drinks. And I am not taking issue with the dust itself, as it was some bizzarre combination of a power disruption and a HVAC control system gone haywire. I am specifically speaking of management not moving the game, not acknowledging that this was a major respiratory situation, not vacuuming the table when it was over and even going to the point of walking over and asking why we weren't sitting and playing. It literally went on for an hour, and there was dust all over everything. I went to my room later that night and ran my hand through my hair and was absolutely disgusted by the cloud of crap that was now floating around the bathroom before jumping in the shower. The incident was not room-wide. It was literally ONLY over the one 2-5 table that they run every day. Buy hey, there were only 25 tables open, why move us?

Regarding the leak between the main 2-5 game and the usual “must move” 2-5 game (when they get one to run), again I do not take as much issue with the leak as I do with management not changing tables or at least trying to catch the water. If you had a leak in your own roof at home, would you watch it leak onto the floor and SOAK the carpet for 10 hours, or do you think it might be more prudent to put a bucket or trash can under it while waiting for the repair man? 3 or 4 floor guys per shift. At least two shifts while I was there. And not one showed the initiative to try and capture the water. And that was after I even mentioned putting the trash can under it (which sits 4 1/2 feet away) to a minimum of 3 of these floor guys and countless dealers.

Yep, in the same glass. We paid some kid to drink it as I recall. And you know which waitress it was. Anyone who plays Harrah’s poker room knows which waitress it was…lol. She's nice enough, but....I'll leave it at that. And yes, it was funny!

Truthfully I have tried to convince myself of the comp argument giving Harrah's an advantage also. But let me give you the other side of the comparison, where I have used some basic math skills to work out the answer, at least to my own satisfaction. I will use the 2-5 game in this example since this is what you play most of the time when they can get it running at Harrah's or Bally's. But for purposes of this example I am going to use a Diamond Card status and below, and not your 7 Star status, since so few people will ever reach that accomplishment and I am not really sure what you guys get comp’ed in the first place.

A weekend room on Friday night is $159 and Sat is $199 or $209 at Harrah’s. You get $2/hour in comps for the poker you play. You also have occasional days where you can earn the mystery multiplier of an average of 5x, 8x, or 15x the base comp rate for that game of $.60/hr. If you are paying for your room Friday and Saturday nights at Harrah's, you cannot accumulate enough TR Points to pay for the rooms even if you have had a couple of nights comp’ed leading into the weekend or after the weekend. (Wed & Thurs and Sun & Mon). It just isn’t possible. So if you are using your poker room comps to help pay for your room, there are really no “extra” comp dollars sitting in your account to expire in the first place.

So if you stop thinking about comps as being used for food, and start thinking of them as being used for accommodations, then the entire 1:1 vs 2:1 argument really become a moot point. Net cash spent at the end of a trip is really a wash due to the sheer expense of staying at either property on a weekend, with the sole exception being the Mystery Multiplier days which don't happen that often anyway. And even on those days, it is of such minimal difference compared to the price of entering a single 2-5 hand preflop, that it’s basically immaterial.

I will take exception to this one spot, although I don't want to take your comment out of context. My belief, and as you have articulately stated will vary with each person's perception and opinion, is that the management makes all of the difference in a poker room. Any poker room. And everyone has their own metrics system to determine those opinions. So here's my view.

I feel the Borgata poker room management has likely protected its players from the nutty cutbacks being experienced by Harrah's poker players. Specifically, I suspect that these same kinds of shenanigans have been passed through Stan for his opinion, and that he was strong enough to rationally explain why they would be detrimental to the room specifically and the casino overall. I have met many of the HET poker room managers over time in Vegas (none in AC), and while I can’t speak for the Harrah’s AC Resort manager specifically, most in Vegas at least are more concerned with bending, rather than engaging, when someone up the corporate food chain floats their newest idea down to them.

Another area I am pretty firm about is that by keeping the Poker Room in such high regard throughout the poker community, they are able to consistently bring in the sheer number of games, players and options that they are able to make available on a daily basis. In my opinion, that is a huge benefit to the poker players. If they ran the room the way some rooms in AC are run, they would suffer the same fate as those rooms. 65% local nits, playing 1-2, chasing there $1/hr comps and bad beat jackpots. I don't think anyone will try to argue with the innovation to the AC poker scene that the Borgata management seems to bring every day. A small example: I mentioned that I like playing cash HORSE games when I am in Vegas to some guys at Caesars AC a couple of months ago. Of course as everyone knows RAZZ isn't an approved game in AC. But upon overhearing our conversation, about 5 people chimed in almost simultaneously that they thought it was "in the works" and likely to be approved because the "guy" (Stan) who runs the poker room over at the Borgata was working on it. Factual or not, I don’t know. But what it told me without question is that to get something like this done in AC, other rooms look to the Borgata management to take the lead.

Another way I think the Borgata really takes care of the players is with the tournaments they run. The weekly line up (which I rarely, if ever, play) always seems packed. The Wed tournament turnout while I was there a few weeks ago was insane! And it was a Wed. (later that same afternoon, btw, I waited until 5pm for Harrah's to get one lousy 2-5 game running). Harrah's cancels half of their tournaments during the week for lack of interest. (a slight exaggeration, but not by much. as many ARE canceled) And for the "bigger" tournament series 4-6 times a year, the Borgata will advertise heavily, the casino is buzzing, and the waitresses and security staff out on the main casino floor even seem to know it’s going on and where you need to go. Harrah's...well the truth seems to be that nobody there seems to care. The satellites into the bigger buy-in events get canceled for lack of interest. And the tournaments themselves that I have attended have been embarrassing poorly attended. Whose fault is it? And as a player, who comes in specifically for these larger format tournaments....should I feel like Harrah's has taken care of me as a player? Or have they let me down?

I guess the bottom line is that it’s a player’s perception of how they are treated as you have previously stated. If beach towels and toaster ovens make you happy, then I have no argument with that. If wanting to use your comp dollars for food instead of accommodations is a major metric used in comparing the rooms, so be it. And if the slot dollars (and I have received an offer from the Borgata as recently as a month ago for $25 in slot comp dollars for reasons unknown to me) are where you are drawing a distinction in the treatment of the poker players between the two rooms, I can live with that.

But if you are going to compare the game selection, the tournament selection and structures, the quality of the chairs tables and lighting, the floor management's attention to detail, the variety and quality of both the restaurants and fast food, the nuttiness of the drink restrictions at Harrah's based on card status, the poker room rates on the weekends, and overall experience of the poker room itself which is truthfully like comparing apples to lemons...then I must say that the Borgata wins in the "treatment of the players" debate, hands down. Some poker players who prefer Harrah’s get caught up in trying to move up the TR card hierarchy, and may try to convince themselves that they are being well treated. I was there myself, until I sat down and did the math one day....

I've said this on multiple forums in the past and I will say it again here. Management makes a difference! It doesn't matter if you are in Vegas or AC. Poker players vote with their feet. And they will go where they perceive they are being treated the best.

i rarely play harrahs. it's always taj or borgata for me. decided to go check out the saturday deepstack tournament yesterday. got a cash game started while i waited. eventually decided against playing the tournament altogether once i realized the amount of players, blind & antes and just the lack of value for me.

cash game was great though. lots of swings but i expect that from my style of play. played with some nice people. shout out to the kid in the rowan university shirt who was on the table from the beginning with me. you play well. and also shout out to the dude who's soul i owned calling an all-in check raise on the flop in a 3bet pot with K high. sorry my man, but that's street poker at it's finest. knew you were going to try and make a move once i showed the T3o 3bet earlier. and if i'm wrong there, it's alright. i don't go around making K high calls for $300+ often. just felt right. had a read and bet sizing tells ftw.

found the floor to be very nice and the dealers ran a good game, needless to say, i'll be back to harrahs next time i'm in AC. very nice room.

there was a 1/2 plo interest list. did it run?

so on saturday, did the 1/2 plo run?

Nope. I started the list at 11am. Never saw it get above 3.

Was guy sitting to your right during that K high hand. Quite the amazing call by you. People still were talking hours after you left. Had you stayed longer, you would have definitely got paid off with any big hands with the table image you created.

Ha, nice, thanks. I wish I could have stayed longer, that table was great. Most of the older gentleman were in for like 4 bullets. Deep pockets + bad play = ideal playing situation. Unfortunately I had a friends college graduation to attend to, which cut the session short. Even though I was playing 8 hours at that point.

Was back at Harrahs last night. Crazy that only one 2/5 game was running, but boy was it soft. Which seems to be the trend for the games here. I like this room. Although it is FREEZING in there, it's a nice atmosphere and I think most of the dealers do their job well and that's really all I can ask for. Not there for comps and all that BS. I wanna get in, make $, and get out.

I'll say what's up next time HustleMan, always nice to meet a 2+2er and have someone to talk to besides an old man grumbling how he can't hit a flop. Seriously this guy last night was just complaining how he can't win with AK ever. Seriously had it 4 out of 9 hands too. And limped every one of course. Ohhhhhhh Atlantic City.