there seems to be a lot of arguments and raised voices at those tables

is there a definite answer(webpage or somewhere itt) what the min/max buyin for 1/2 NL and 2(3)/5 NL? This is driving me nuts. Tried to dig out itt but don't think I got anything concrete.

displaced internet refugees ruining the 1500 5-10NL game. GG to one of the best mid stakes games in socal :/

when did that happen? i played 10-20 today but mon and tues played 5-10 (both games w/ hank) both were great, not an internet kid to be found. actually there was one internet kid from texas but he was uber nitty, not a bad player but a human out button, no biggie.

1/2NL is $40 min/max.

3/5NL is $200 min/max.

If you felt (or, realistically, if you're under half the buyin) you can rebuy up to 1.5x the dollars above.

To 2+2: Please do not accept this as an invitation to bitch about the ridiculousness of the buyin structures. We know.

Limon how many 10/20 Internet pros lately? That's why u were 5/10 ing ?

sorta none. i mean a few, but no new faces. people who always went back and forth. I play mornings so sometimes I come in and there is no 10-20. or the 10-20 is jerry, richard, jack, jim, cliff, mike, song ... and... papa (w/a short stack). its just not a good game.

limon, i cant recall the exact thread, but remember your input into the 10/20 game was that 200 dollars per hour was a solid win rate.

what is your opinion on what can be expected of the 500-1500? most days (even weekends) it doesn't look all too juicy at all with the same regs nitting it up... assuming said player is one of the best in the game (i am not)


also to all the people asking bout the 1/2 and 3/5 game... ur really better off at the bike.

Nah. 200/hr over at least 4000 hours might make you the winningest 10-20 reg in the world (at least the top 99.99 percentile). 120/hr over a legit sample is realistic for the top 10% OF PROS (ie the very best pros). That would equate to around 80/hr in the 5-10 w/ the worlds best player or 2 making 100+

o ya thats rite. apologize for incorrectly referencing your input in the matter. 200 was either the op or some of hte initial responses and then some high stakes players started saying 500 to 1000000 dollars per hour is hte norm

Limons numbers are accurate for people that play those stakes

I wonder what shanes hourly at 10-20 is ?

I got a feeling durrr would be able to approach 200

Im sure it was high back then was a different world, not sure it was a legitimate sample size, and what happened to him? havent seen him in ages...

it would be tough because in todays game the avg. stack is 100-125bb's. in 2005-6-7 sure, when there were 6 games and the avg. stack 250bb's but now? 2 games max and many are short.

Today I did see many more online guys in the 5-10. there was a few from missouri and and a couple from texas and a couple randoms. The 10-20 still had no new online guys. Online winners must have been working on very short rolls. That said i still sat in a great 10-20 game for 3 hours then switched to 5-10 and spent 2 hours in a very good game even though it had two missouri guys who were playing well and aggressive.

I Was at the commerce last night and had a blast! It was super packed, i dont know if it was a combo of black friday and it actually being friday but either way it was nuts. they had at least 10+ 200NL tables going, and another 10+ 100NL tables going and the about 25-30 people on each waiting list. Is that not insane or what.

My 200NL table was super fishy, (i.e. a guy who asked me what "being on tilt" meant) dropped $800 in 3 buyins. I was card dead but was able to walk away up $300.

Pretty standard Friday night. I've been a few times since Black Friday (including last night) and haven't seen any uptick in business. A few new faces here and there, but with that big a room there will always be a few new faces.

Haven't really seen a boom in b&m rooms. I assume all the online players are too young to play live or they're too antisocial and scared to interact with the outside world. I think of it like a video game, people that play madden won't play football in real life lol

How often is the 20/40 PLO game running?

I think its more of a getting their roll together and getting their act together before starting to play. I think youll see an uptick right around now for the next two weeks. Just a small one.

yeah i didnt expect a B&M boom after black friday but rather after people got their rolls off the online sites but i got my money surprisingly fast off of stars this week and i haven't seen a huge surge of people rocking full tilt hats and hoodies. expect for one guy in particular in the sunday 10k at commerce today who looked like a douche lol

I think we're all douches.

referring to poker players in general not just online players.

I play in the mid limit games at Commerce. In general since Black Friday IMO the games in general 20-40 HE through 60-120 HE seem way tougher, and there has been less of them running.

There have not been brand new faces per se, but there have been a lot of good players (probable pros) who did not normally play all that often playing more often now (small sample size as obv). I think many of the former online pro's played live before black Friday, but not as often probably because it was not as profitable. So it seems in these games there are a lot more solid/good players who may have only played live a few hours a week or a few weeks a year all playing at once now.

Interestingly, I have seen a lot of former 20-40 and 40-80 regular "fish" playing 8-16 a lot lately. This probably has a lot to do with them bringing the 8-16 games into the top section, but I think it also has to do with the bigger game being tougher.

Believe it or not, many regulars who might be labelled "fish" game-select and given the choice of playing in very tough 20-40, 40-80 or 60-120 games, or jumping into liver 8-16 games, I think they are taking the latter option.

For the casinos I think this is actually not too bad a thing. Believe it or not, 8-16 doesn't drop that much less than 20-40 through 60-120, and playing 8-16 regs/fish are going to be losing their money way slower, so I do not think the death of mid-limit games will be that big a deal to the casino's bottom line.

I think this will have a very big impact on mid limit grinders as their games seem to be getting a lot tougher, and they cannot really go down because with the rake the 8-16 game is not really beatable for any significant money, despite the softness.

I do not know if the same trend is holding true for the no-limit games because I do not really play them. However, I think based on what I have seen so far Black Friday and its afteraffects are going to be bad for pro poker players, but possibly beneficial to the B&M casinos themselves.

If you're seeing less 20/40 games but they've become tougher all you're really seeing is the same thing that has happened to poker in general when the economy went into the ****ter. People have to drop down in stakes, and the only people left in the bigger games have the skill to be there. I don't necessarily think that Black Friday has anything to do with it, particularly in a city like LA where (as you said) many of the online players were already playing live.

And yeah, I'd have to guess that moving 8/16 to the hotel side makes it more tolerable for a borderline (or losing) 20/40 player to step down into.

+1. there really arent any new players yet in limit or nl. a couple here and there but that was always true. the commerce is a big place. ive always laughed at the online v. live debate because i knew that the best players (in areas w/ big live games) always did both (me included). The top players in lows ang-gel-lese, which puts them in the running for being the top players in the world, always played live and online.

Hey Limon,

Don't you think it would be good for the NL games if they moved the $500 to $1,500 buyin game over to the hotel side? And just leave the $400 buyin ($5/$10 blind) game on the other low limit side.

There would be more cross over to the $600 buyin NL. And since there's limited $2,000 buyin games running, there would be more NL table activity on the hotel size. Instead of always looking so sparse in terms of NL tables on the hotel side.

They moved the $8/$16 limit game over to go with the $20/40 limit games, so why not for $500-$1,500.

I personally think it would be great.

I dunno. there are plusses and minuses. theres a half dozen good 10-20 regs who wouldnt be caught dead in the 5-10 but im afraid if they moved it to the high limit side they would play. also if it was in the top section the top section props would prob be allowed to play in it. i like the idea that there is always a good game going in the casino somewhere. what the top section needs is a gold chip plo (10-10 w/mississippi straddle) and not that bull**** 20-40plo that all the regs shortstack and hit n' run.