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Old 10-28-2011, 12:59 PM   #176
Smokey_The_Bear
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

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I really had hoped when the limits went up maybe some more O/8 and stud games would spring up, but that spread limit just seems to have killed the creativity. I hate that "poker" and "hold'em" have become so synonymous.
+1
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Old 10-28-2011, 07:01 PM   #177
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

I'm curious what the tournament turnout has been like at the Isle. Any info would be appreciated. I've only swung by to check out their room once. Kind of had the Gilpin feel of being removed from the casino.
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Old 10-28-2011, 09:10 PM   #178
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

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I'm curious what the tournament turnout has been like at the Isle. Any info would be appreciated. I've only swung by to check out their room once. Kind of had the Gilpin feel of being removed from the casino.

I'm looking for similar feedback on each casinos tourney action, room feel, player turnout, player treatment etc. thanks locals
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Old 10-29-2011, 09:25 AM   #179
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

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The Lodge runs tournaments 10am, noon, 3pm, 7pm daily. Your original buy in goes 100% to the prize pool. The $60 tourneys also have a $5 dealer add on (+T2000 chips to the starting T6000) and up to two $10 rebuys (which go to the house). The $100 tourneys have a $10 add on (+T5000 on top of the T10,000 starting stack) and two optional $15 rebuys. Great numbers for the players.
Last week the Lodge tweaked their generic tournies. Now they only allow one rebuy at higher price ($20 in the $100 tournaments, $15? in the $60ies) which must be used before the first break. Add on rules and pricing are the same.

I have no idea how they run their tournaments with such low juice (they HAVE to be losing money, and that's before they sail off $5,000 in the monthly freeroll), but I'll keep playing there as long as they keep it so player-friendly.

In my experience with the old manner of rebuys, folks were averaging about one rebuy per tournament. Now that they are more expensive and only are allowed during such low blind levels, there should be even lower utilization, meaning juice is going to run somewhere around 10% (assuming you lump the add-ons in the mandatory buy-in price, which I think is appropriate as they're universally purchased).

Oh, and rumor has it that they are giving out $1 comps per tournament entered.

Last edited by The Meal; 10-29-2011 at 09:26 AM. Reason: Added bit on new comp rumor
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Old 10-31-2011, 04:26 PM   #180
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

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Last week the Lodge tweaked their generic tournies. Now they only allow one rebuy at higher price ($20 in the $100 tournaments, $15? in the $60ies) which must be used before the first break. Add on rules and pricing are the same.

I have no idea how they run their tournaments with such low juice (they HAVE to be losing money, and that's before they sail off $5,000 in the monthly freeroll), but I'll keep playing there as long as they keep it so player-friendly.

In my experience with the old manner of rebuys, folks were averaging about one rebuy per tournament. Now that they are more expensive and only are allowed during such low blind levels, there should be even lower utilization, meaning juice is going to run somewhere around 10% (assuming you lump the add-ons in the mandatory buy-in price, which I think is appropriate as they're universally purchased).

Oh, and rumor has it that they are giving out $1 comps per tournament entered.
I don't mind the entry fee structure, it is quite unusual but as you mention, it does kill the juice which is nice. The structure, however, is still terrible. I might play one of the 60's but I don't like 100+ buy-in for a shove-fest halfway through.
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Old 11-03-2011, 11:27 PM   #181
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

This thread used to get a lot of traffic, but has really died down since moving to regional communities. What a shame.

Anyone going up the hill this weekend? I'm debating on dropping by for one of the Isles new tourneys on saturday or maybe playin one at the Golden Gates. Possibly a little cash. Anyone else gonna make the trip?
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Old 11-04-2011, 12:53 AM   #182
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

Definitely looking forward to hearing feedback on the Isle's tourneys. I'm headed up for the Lodge's freeroll on Saturday.
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Old 11-04-2011, 01:06 AM   #183
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

I'll be down this weekend, probably playing the tournies at the Gates, but I might check out some of the new ones at the Isle. I'm sure I'll find my way into the 3hr waitlist at Ameristar too.

Gates is still my pick for tournies. I like the Lodge, but the structure really turns it into a crapshoot in the latter stages. Though it can be fun to go into pushbot mode and tilt the hell out of the shortstack nits
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Old 11-04-2011, 10:03 AM   #184
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

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I'll be down this weekend, probably playing the tournies at the Gates, but I might check out some of the new ones at the Isle. I'm sure I'll find my way into the 3hr waitlist at Ameristar too.

Gates is still my pick for tournies. I like the Lodge, but the structure really turns it into a crapshoot in the latter stages. Though it can be fun to go into pushbot mode and tilt the hell out of the shortstack nits
the isle had two tables for the Omaha tournament yesterday. going to check out the $150 deep stack on saturday at noon. this one has the tourney bad beat jackpot with it too so i'm curious to see how many show up.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:30 PM   #185
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

Just went down to check it out and the structure looks pretty solid. Think I'll jump in. Hopefully that BBJ will entice a good crowd.

Anybody have any idea why they card so viciously in Black Hawk? Seems like every time I come up for the weekend I'm eventually rockin 4 or 5 of those arm bands that they give out "so we don't have to keep stopping you." I even got carded down in the freaking restaurant when I went to have breakfast this morning. Never seen anything like it anyplace else.
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Old 11-05-2011, 01:45 PM   #186
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

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Anybody have any idea why they card so viciously in Black Hawk? Seems like every time I come up for the weekend I'm eventually rockin 4 or 5 of those arm bands that they give out "so we don't have to keep stopping you." I even got carded down in the freaking restaurant when I went to have breakfast this morning. Never seen anything like it anyplace else.
I think one or two of the casinos got busted recently for some under-age violations.
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Old 11-05-2011, 03:11 PM   #187
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

They only had 5 runners for the noon at the Isle today, and needed at least 8 to go off. Nice looking room now, with a snazzy bar area at the back. Hopefully they can get the numbers -- I'm wondering off the Lodge's freeroll is affecting poker traffic today.
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Old 11-05-2011, 10:33 PM   #188
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

I was one of them. I ended up playing the deepstack at GG instead. Hung around for 6 hours only to run AJ into A10. Seems like they've improved their structure a bit, at least for the deepstacks. No crazy jump from 300-600 to 600-1200
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Old 11-06-2011, 03:10 AM   #189
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

The Lodge's is 25/50, 50/100, 100/200, BRK, 200/400, 300/600, 400/800, BRK, 600/1200, 1000/2000, 1500/3000, BRK, then it's silly season: 2000/4000, 4000/8000, 6000/12 000, BRK, 10 000/20 000, 20 000/40 000. Generally the chop happens at 4k/8k as folks realize that things just got real.

No love in the freeroll for me, but I managed to be part of the 7pm's chop, which was nice with 40 runners.
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:00 AM   #190
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

That's a bummer there wasn't enough runners for the Isle noon. It's frustrating to go up there and not have the tourney go.

The only non-WPT event that I went up there to play that actually ran, was the Charity Tourney they had back in the spring.

That said, it's a great room and the structures are the best on the hill. Sad it's not catching on.
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Old 11-07-2011, 04:21 PM   #191
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

IMO, less juice > deep-stack structure. Everyone plays under the same structure and are under the same constraints (and in the long run, has the same amount of luck). But the percentage that is kept by the house is a very tangible and real difference from venue to venue.

But I'm fortunate in that I can go up a few times a month, so when it was called a "numbers game", I was being honest about how these tournament structures affect me.

That said, I definitely wish the Isle was a viable alternative. Many options are a good thing, and in all players' best interests.
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Old 11-07-2011, 06:31 PM   #192
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

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IMO, less juice > deep-stack structure. Everyone plays under the same structure and are under the same constraints (and in the long run, has the same amount of luck). But the percentage that is kept by the house is a very tangible and real difference from venue to venue.

But I'm fortunate in that I can go up a few times a month, so when it was called a "numbers game", I was being honest about how these tournament structures affect me.

That said, I definitely wish the Isle was a viable alternative. Many options are a good thing, and in all players' best interests.
Unfortunately I don't think players have much of a choice. The tournaments with the lower buy-ins have higher juice and worse structures. The higher buy-in tourneys have better structure AND less juice. There isn't really any in between.

The isle's $40 qualifiers for the WPT had a decent structure for that buy-in, but starting chip were 3000, and the juice was 33%

Then again, can I really be upset when the casino is providing a $40 tourney. Think about the overhead costs involved, they probably don't make any money off them.

The Isle's $100 deepstack tourney that went a few times was probably the best option. 20,000 in starting chips with the dealer appreciation, and a fantastic structure. The juice was 25% of the total buyin, but I considered that worth it for the play you got. I only got to play it once, the other 3 times I went up it didn't go.

Finally, this is a little more contentious, but I don't agree with the level playing field comment. With a terrible structure that turns into a shove fest, experienced players will still have an advantage, but it will be less, due to the variance involved. Deeper stacks and better structures allow for more plays, and more time to make up for mistakes etc. Of course none of this matters for me because I am not that good at poker and have no bankroll.
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Old 11-07-2011, 08:22 PM   #193
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

RR,

In the Lodge's "old" structure (100% of buy-ins go to prize pool, 1 add-on to the dealers, up to 2 rebuys through the first six levels which went to the house) I played in 10 multi-table events at the $60 and $100 buy-in levels.
I averaged $92 per buy in, $12 in rebuys, and $8 in add-ons. That's $92 to the prize pool for every $112 I spent (21.7% to overhead).

They've since tweaked the structure twice. A week ago they had it so that 100% of the buy-ins went to the prize pool, 1 add-on to the dealers, and 1 rebuy through the first three levels. My numbers for those were: 10 MTTs, $86.67 in buy-ins, $6.67 in rebuys, and $8.33 in add-ons (14.8% to overhead).

The most recent update is a lot like the last paragraph, but they extended the rebuy period through the first six levels again. I've played in one of those tournaments: $100 buy in, $20 rebuy, $10 add on (23.1% to overhead).

If you treat the add-ons like they're part of the buy-in (which they kind of are, since everyone takes them and they give you more chips) then the percentage of juice are: 10.7%, 6.6%, and 15.4%. Compare that to the Gates weekday events which are in the neighborhood of 33% juice for the same buy ins with the same structure.

Those are pretty small numbers for $60 and $100 tournaments (well, $65 and $110 tournaments if you roll-in the add-ons), IMO. They do come with the structure that I spelled out a few posts up (which don't really "go crazy" until the final table).

I agree there are two sides to the structure-gets-bad-at-the-final-table coin, but my experience is that skilled players can (and do) out-adjust folks who aren't as in tune with the math at that stage. I know my results had a massive upswing when I made one particular adjustment...
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Old 11-07-2011, 11:09 PM   #194
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

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They've since tweaked the structure twice. A week ago they had it so that 100% of the buy-ins went to the prize pool, 1 add-on to the dealers, and 1 rebuy through the first three levels. My numbers for those were: 10 MTTs, $86.67 in buy-ins, $6.67 in rebuys, and $8.33 in add-ons (14.8% to overhead).
That should read "3 MTTs." Heh.
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Old 11-08-2011, 02:38 PM   #195
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

Looks like I'll be up in the Black Hawk/Denver area from 12/15-12/18.

Do the GG tourneys draw the biggest crowds? It's been a year since I've been up there and I don't know what all has changed. I remember GG being the best poker spot up the hill.
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Old 11-08-2011, 03:46 PM   #196
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

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Looks like I'll be up in the Black Hawk/Denver area from 12/15-12/18.

Do the GG tourneys draw the biggest crowds? It's been a year since I've been up there and I don't know what all has changed. I remember GG being the best poker spot up the hill.
At the times I play, the Gates tournaments average 2-3 times as many players as those at the Lodge. It's pretty dependent on the time and day you're there.

If you're after the largest tournament fields, then the Gates is unsurpassed in Black Hawk.
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Old 11-08-2011, 05:20 PM   #197
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

That's what I figured. Hey, when you're up there next, you should see what craft beers they have on tap around the Lodge and GG.

They had a mighty fine selection last time I was around there!
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Old 11-08-2011, 05:49 PM   #198
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

I was thinking I should do exactly that just for my own self.

You're right that it's a long list.
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Old 11-08-2011, 06:09 PM   #199
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

Meal,

Thanks for the response to my post, you make some interesting points.

I have only played in one of the Lodge tourney's, back when they were doing the "no-juice" with 2 rebuys. It was a strange way to structure things in my opinion, but like with everything else it allows for certain strategies to be more profitable.

I will be interested in playing the new Lodge tourneys. I'm guessing your adjustment that resulted in a massive upswing was... well, wouldn't want to spoil it here! Regardless, the new Lodge structure really does seem to be the most reasonable juice for buy-in, I just hate how ridiculous the structure gets. This can be taken advantage of, so I will stop complaining!

My hope is for some fantasy land where I can play reasonable buy-in tournies ($60-100) with larger fields and low juice. Because of basic economics, this isn't really a possibility. I think the Lodge's tourneys are probably the next best thing. Thanks again for the thoughtful post.
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Old 11-08-2011, 07:21 PM   #200
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Re: Colorado Poker (Black Hawk, Central City, Cripple Creek)

Anyone know of special, bigger holiday tourneys going on around mid-December?
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