Let's talk about the 40 explicitly. When it ran regularly, was it mostly winning regs who showed up at 10 in the morning to start it? Was it a tough, shorthanded game at 10:30? I argue no.

I agree for the 80 there was a core group of people who showed up (later in the day) to start it. If it ran overnight they would show up earlier to claim their spot earlier - that is, they deluberately chose not to come in early to help start the 40.

In another way, you just admitted a few posts ago that if your game of choice isn't running, you leave. How does that jive with "it's winners that start games"?

My experience is that most people are like you. I don't think it's a bad thing, and I think it's totally rational, but very few winners are the type to stay around and start something, specifically because they have options. Why should they stay and help start the 40 when they can go over to NL and play the 5/10, or drive up to the Oaks and play the 30? Indeed, one of the Oaks' biggest problems is people calling in, and if the game in question isn't running, callers deciding to drive down to Bay. It's exactly because strong players can play anywhere that they have the flexibility to play elsewhere or spend time studying (which they realize is valuable) or decide to take the day off because poker is work and it's not like they took the day off to play poker.

Yeah, but there are 10 low limit games for every 40 or bigger game.

I don't think you understand the argument.

The question is what the optimal configuation of games is for long term viability. Nobody really debates the bottom 90% because a very large percentage of the population can afford to be 8/16 losers. It's crude but because the winners pool takes less money out than the drop, it's basically about AIS - asses in seats. Nobody really debates 3/6 vs 4/8 because, broad strokes, it doesn't matter.

If people show up to play 4/8 and only 3/6 runs, only a few people will het huffy. If people show up to play 20/40 and only 15/30 runs, more people are huffy - and rationally, because some people want to win $40/hr rather than $30/hr or can afford to lose $60/hr but not $80/hr.

The question really is whether there is a better system than 20/40-gap-80/160.

And to be clear for others, I don't think I have a preferred solution. I'm just pointing out that the AIS analysis isn't optimal for the higher stakes. If you were to drop the big game to 60/120 and a whole bunch of people got pissed off and stopped playing, I wouldn't immediately dismiss the idea as bad even if it meant there were fewer tables than ran, because the people who would leave are disproportionately those whose time is worth between $120 and $160/hr. In the long term, if that money stays in the pool it can end up in the drop.

i will leave if no game close to my size is going or about to start. i wont sit in a small game just to kill time unless my game is getting started soon. i will help to start a game in a place that has a lower rake for shorthanded if it looks like it will be a good game. i wont start a lousy game with good players for no reason.

but generally i dont play for long in bad games. i have a life to live.

and i cant remember a casino ever like giving me or anyone a free dinner or even a thank you for starting a game for them.

Ray, have you been playing at Bay?

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The funny thing is that polarization of big:small games at Bay 101 is basically emblematic of the have/have-nots problem in the Bay area. Erosion of the middle-class. There are people able/willing to lose lots of money, and then everyone else.

I noticed the same thing in Reno. Basically a handful of people playing 20/40, and the rest playing 3/6.

no i havent been going to the bay for awhile. the games were getting not as fun for me although i won every trip ive made there. and i am trying to live without traffic in my life. not worth it for me. that is why i moved out west in the first place.

when you have a big step up in games it is because usually the house isnt good at making the the proper stakes to start at the lower limits and structures them so that the players are not able to win enough to move up or down if losing.

if your games jump from 3/6 to 20/40 the house isnt doing the right things in the card room. although they will think they are.

If rakes keeps going up faster than stakes inflation at the lowest levels, it will be somewhat interesting that our generation was both the last to be able to pay for college without outrageous debt and also to move up from the bottom of the poker ladder to the top.

What would you suggest they do?

adjust blinds and rake so the grinders and better players can actually win some money.

give an incentive to play in the in between game to get it established.

actually, start games in between the next higher stakes if it is too high unless its a nosebleed game that doesnt apply.

say instead of having 5 3/6 games start having the 5th game be a 5/10. and work from there. it does take some time and work but eventually builds a well balanced poker room that can grow.

This sounds ridiculously self serving.

At 40/80 a preflop raise and a BB defend puts $180 into the pot. A $9 drop plus tip equals 5%. If the PFR bets through and BB calls down, that's $580 in the pot and the $9 charge is less than 2%.

But it was established, and stopped. Offering limited incentives to jump start something is one thing, but if you make it permanent then it's the same as the first point.

Plus higher incentives just mean the game will ONLY run when incentivized.

You'll split the player pools.

Fundamentally, do you think poker is growing?

I see whatever changes people make now about limiting damage control, not growing.

This should be obvious, but compare traffic at peak times, like what it was like to show up and play 8/16 or 20/40 on a Friday night five years ago vs today. The Oaks used to use all those side rooms (where the tables dont have autoshufflers), with lists 20 deep for every game. The last time I dropped by the main room wasn't even filled. I have never played at Bay during peak times but I bet the trend is similar - you're reaching a point where cannibalization of your existing games is a concern. If the YOY numbers are stable it'd probably exceed expectations.

And this will probably come off as somewhat mean but if poker players hadn't spent so much time fighting what would have been normal inflation-adjusted rake increases in the past, maybe there'd be some room for a rake decrease now. It's seriously like the Fed rate being sub-2% when the next financial crisis hits, contrary to popular belief you can't run a marathon by sprinting full speed all the time.

First time to the new room. Definitely an improvement over the old one, and the dealers look much better in black than the dirty white from before.
As usual, very long waits for the good games, but $50 go a long way to get the coveted seat earlier.
Food is not very good, yet very expensive. Drinks likewise. Paid $17 for a shot of Scotch, that would probably cost around $9 in a bar.
The chips are the same ones from before, and I never really liked them. Those magnets are terrible. And why do they play with $20 chips in NL? What happened to $25 chips?

That's a shame. Used to be just the opposite.

Just saw they restarted Sunday tournaments, first one was last week. $200 buy in, starts at 9:00. Probably will choose Lucky Chances over this almost every week, but at least it's another option.

Time drop is back in the 80. 15 per person full table or heads up

So I dropped into Bay 101 on Friday afternoon and all day Saturday. Played 20-40 limit. Two tables on Friday and three on Saturday. My primary game is Stud - typically Commerce or Foxwoods. Play Holdem at Bellagio sometimes. My Holdem experience is limited in comparison.

I played years ago, before the reno, and quite enjoyed the atmosphere now. Maybe it is because I am used to Commerce where it feels like a huge group of inmates from a psychiatric facility escaped and all of them decided to play poker.

With that said, during those two days I experienced about the best game I have seen of any variant in a long time. Mix of solid players with an ongoing supply of pure nutbars. Solid hands were pretty much assured of great action. People making ridiculous plays like cold calling four bets with T8s pre-flop, and turning their hole cards over at the end of the hand to show what a bad beat they were getting. I never wanted to leave.

I see a lot of posts about things not being great there, so did I just fluke upon a unique set of circumstances?

That's my impression of 20/40 as well but I think the concerns were for the higher limit games, like ones where people could make a living in a high COL area like the SFBA.

Might be headed to the Bay Area in a couple of weeks on business. Haven't played poker in the Bay Area since 2012. Where's all the mid-stakes limit holdem action these days? The new Bay 101 or has it all shifted over to Casino M8trix? Bay 101 still take call-ins?

Bay 101 has 2-3 tables of 20/40 and 1-2 tables of 80/160 LHE daily. On rare occasions a 40/80 will run. You can call in 1 hour ahead of time (definitely recommended).

M8trix has a 75/150 LHE Tu/Thu and sometimes other weekdays. You can also call-in, not sure on how far in advance. This is a new game (basically several of the Bay 80 players are rebelling against the recent drop increase at Bay), so it's unclear on how long it will continue.

Oaks will start spreading 20/40 and 40/80 next week.

Wow. The probability that all three places end up with subcritical mass is nonzero.

M8trix 75/150 was advertised on their internal monitors as running Mon-Thu starting at 10 am.

It's definitely picking up momentum. Cheaper food, lower drop, better looking waitresses, it's got everything poker players are looking for.

Two 80's at Bay today, but I think there is a legitimate danger of Bay losing all games over 20/40. Unfortunately it seems like the mid-high limit games are moving all over the f'ing place instead of being concentrated in one location.

They brought back the $250 Saturday morning tourneys so I will be going back to Bay 101 for the first time in months. I also saw it teased that they're gonna bring back the monthly $550s

Going to be in town 4/12-4/27 on business and staying pretty close. How much will I need to grease the floor to get a 2/3/5 or 20/40 seat quickly?