and I commented on the state of poker in AC as well as the Borgata specifically.
Poker in AC was in the toilet before covid outside of the Borgata, poker in the Borgata was doing fine for the most part.
Those other rooms never reopened because they were essentially dead already. It would have made no sense to reopen them.

Those are the facts. If you have a problem with me stating those facts in a thread about the state of poker in AC that's a strange hill to die on.

You acted like those other rooms were humming along until covid which wasn't the case and I commented on that.

You also talk about me trashing mgm a lot (fair) but you incorrectly try and blame rooms that opened ten+ years ago in Delware, PA and Maryland as the reason for the decline in the rooms in AC in 2024. Sands (wind creek)and Parx opened in 2009.Delware Park got a casino around that time. Maryland Live opened in 2012. Those customers lost 12+ years ago aren't the reason for a huge decline many years later. They're the reason for losing customers at the time of those openings.

And you're more than happy to harp on that point while being completely wrong as much as I'm happy to trash MGM. Seems like "you seem to be on a mission. My first post was about the declining state of poker in AC, AND AC in general, not specifically the Borgata and not just poker. But thanks for reminding everyone of that opinion for the umpteenth time, lest we forget" applies to you as well.

If you're gonna harp on something at least be right.

I agree with basically everything you said here, but to be fair, the PA rooms being an option is kind of a big deal in terms of the AC poker market's health. If they didn't exist, AC poker would likely be doing a lot better right now solely just because of the NYC players that now prefer PA rooms over AC. There seemed to be a big shift when the comp rooms dried up

We had this debate a while back in the Borgata thread. I wasn't looking to rehash it here. If you're 100% correct, it's just part of the poker decline since the 2000s, and a tiny part of the overall decline in AC. If anything, the Borgata is doing better than most if not all of the other AC casinos.

In my opinion, the room situation is the main reason for the decline in Borgata poker since COVID. Not just by players from NYC, but also from other areas, including PA. One of Borg's beefs is with the quality of dealers and floor people at the Borgata. And it was horrible after COVID. When we debated this issue a while back, I was of the opinion that it had gotten much better. I played a lot there the last two months, and they had gotten better still. I was surprised they were handling bomb parts well, with a few exceptions (possibly more issues at PLO). Also, I don't think a lot of players are opting to play elsewhere because of the quality of the dealers at Borgata. It's the lack of comped rooms.

HomeStar - borg23 - George_Rice -Same arguments in multiple threads. All make good points. All seem like quality posters here at 2+2.

I tend to read them all since I follow these threads being someone who plays a lot, with easily the most career hours being 1- Parx then followed by 2- Borgata. Living 20 mins from parx and over an hour from Borgata I play at Parx much more. I don't post too often but figured I'll finally post some comments about the discussion.

I'd tend to lean with borg23 on a few things. First off, don't think he is Borgata hater for no reason. It seems based on fond feelings for the Borgata and just how far they have fallen since the last 5 years or so coinciding with around when MGM took over. Can't say I blame him. Other two guys seem to agree but the % blame is the main cause of the disagreements so I'll give my opinion on the majors reasons for the decline. Only talking about the severe decline in the last 5 years (not 20 years, not 30 years, etc)

Casinos opening in other states - easily the biggest reason for the decline of AC as a whole including most of AC poker. But not really for Borgata. Borgata survived and was doing perfectly fine for a decade after Philly casinos opened. Most AC poker consolidated to Borgata as other rooms shrank and closed. I'm not saying casinos opening in other states helped Borgata, it certainly hurt overall, but they survived it and were still a top poker room.

Covid This really hurt Borgata bigtime. They handled the whole pandemic recovery horribly. My first visit back after re-opening was probably 3-4+ months later and I couldn't believe how behind everywhere else they were, both the poker room and resort as a whole. Couldn't believe how many things were still closed or only partially open after that long to recover compared to other casinos in other states. It was a joke. Not sure what % fault is Borgatas and how much New Jersey as a state contributed . I know Governor Murphy was a huge Covid nit and really hurt a lot of businesses worse then other states.

MGM taking over Easily the biggest reason for Borgata decline the last 5 years in my opinion. I'm somewhat of an outsider since I haven't been there much the last few years. However, the main reasons I haven't been there much the last few years are all MGM reasons. Lack of free rooms, until just this past year. where somehow they got re-instated. Visited a couple more times this years only because free rooms were back and was disappointed each time. Mainly with the poker options. The floor and getting in games were nothing but bad experiences with how they were operating, too lazy to post details/stories.. lets just say they were subpar.. Probably doesn't help only free room nights are weekdays and there in no game variety during the week. Even the little things, like when I did play I didn't even bother to persue getting the few comp dollars I probably earned after reading the headache the process seemed after reading lots of posts on here. Now it might be easy after getting used to it but dreaded dealing with it for the first time.
I didn't even have to deal with the instances of no cage being open in the poker room or really bad dealer times like I see posted from the last 5 years. Which seems insulting to poker players. Never had any negative bias towards MGM before taking over Borgata from my trips to Vegas in the past.

My personal blame breakdown for Borgata's decline, not including any other factors. Philly casinos 5% , Covid 20%, MGM 75%. That's assigning the blame for the horrible recovery from the Covid shutdown to MGM and not the pandemic itself

+1

Regarding the "Borgata decline", I also agree many good points have been made. It might help, though, to clarify, what decline we are talking about:

1. Size of room, amount of games available, etc.

- Outside of Tuesdays (at Parx), I think Borgata still may be the biggest and has the most games/options so some may wonder "what decline"
- PLO being a clear exception where Parx dominates

2. How well the room is run/quality of the dealers/floor

- Both pre and post MGM, in my opinion, Borgata has always been below the average
- The reduced cage availability post COVID/MGM has not helped

3. Comps/Hotel/Restaurants

- Post MGM, Borgata has obviously declined in this category

I agree with everything but …

2. How well the room is run/quality of the dealers/floor.

I think under management of poker room manager Kellie deCelis things getting better.

I spent a few days in AC for the first time in many years. Used to play a lot in my 20s (2000s), had kids and got away from poker. I travel to Vegas and lots of other places for work so I still play live a lot. I was shocked at how poorly the Borgata room vibe was on Thur 12/26, Fri 12/27, Sat 12/28. I played 1/3, sat in a 6/12 LHE game they got running on Friday, and then played 20/40 in the back room.

I've spent a ton of time at Talking Stick Scottsdale, Orleans in Las Vegas, the Commerce in LA, Hustler in LA, and some of the other Vegas rooms. Every single room listed runs circles around Borgata from a players experience. It's really striking and disappointing. All the regulars were complaining about the stuff I see in this thread --- no hotel comps, cage closing down, but it was even little stuff like the way they managed lists and filled seats --- drove everyone crazy. And there's stuff happening in AC that would never fly in Vegas.

I'd prefer to play in an 8/16, 10/20, something mid-stakes LHE. They got nothing, fine, I'm a dinosaur who refuses to adapt to NLHE, my fault. They have one low stakes game, a 2/4/6/12 game, with 50+ people on a list by 9am. When people start getting called, they spend 30 minutes filling an open seat because nobody bothered to refresh the list all day long and everybody at the top of the list is MIA or gone so they have to call 20 names to fill a seat. The management / floor / front desk just seems checked out.

They get enough interest for a 6/12 LHE game, call it, it goes for a while, but they can't get anybody to fill a seat as the day goes on despite 50+ people being on a list for 2/4/6/12. An engaged poker room would be advertising the open game to all the players waiting for a seat. So the game breaks and most of us go over to the 20/40 which is now a short-handed must-move feeding a second must-move feeding the main game.

I guess I'd sound like a real old man yelling at clouds if I also complain about the 6/12 game running with red chips so the dealer is making change for every single player, every single action, every street, because Atlantic City (and Foxwoods) refuse to play lower stakes LHE with dollar chips for a proper chip structure. At least the 20/40 game plays properly in red chips. They all wonder why the 10/20 doesn't work, yet everbody talks about the lore of the old pink chip game at the Trop with overflowing pots. I grabbed two racks of white chips so I could bet in proper increments, entire table looked at me like I was nuts.

I guess the 20/40 was OK but I just find it hard to believe they can't figure out how to do anything between low-stakes and 20/40.

Not defending Borgata many of these complaints are legit, but it’s worth mentioning what you saw with the long 2/4/6/12 list is a particular situation. Usually that game runs with the same group of people who are there exclusively to try and hit high hands. Basically every hand goes to the river with no action on earlier streets. This past weekend there was a special $1000/hh high hand promotion, so all of those people on that list were there for that reason. The people in that game aren’t going to be open to playing anything different

Pre-Pandemic I logged 600-700 hours per year at Borgata. Now I go 2 or 3 times per year. I play elsewhere now.

Like you I was there this week. Arrived at 10:15 AM and went to the podium to sign in. Just one old man in front of me. He and the desk person were engaged in a two minutes long conversation about some small town they both know and yapped away while I stood there and the line grew by a few people. They finally finish and just then a pissed off customer barges ahead because his name had gotten skipped over and erased from the top of the list. This goes on for at least two minutes before he gets put back. The line is about eight people long at this point when I finally get my initials in and I am number five on the list.

I glance over and see there is one window open at the cage and a line. I get on line because new games should be opening soon and I will be ready with chips should my name get called. The line moves at a snail’s pace because the one window is also doing tournament sign ins. Before I get to the window it is10:30 and a new game is called. I get out of line to ensure that I get a seat in the game. There I am informed that I can no longer clock in at that table and have to go back on the same line that handles sign-ins. I wait on line and get clocked in. Back to the table where I get the news I already know - I have to go to the cage and get on line to get chips. At 10:40 I finally have chips and can sit down.

Literally 25 minutes of standing in stupid lines.

Poor vibe is the more shocking thing. Those big HH weekends have always been every table full, every list a mile long. If you're going for it, you should go prepared to sit at any eligible game you reasonably can.

Also FWIW, Foxwoods has had yellow $2 chips for $4-8 and $8-16 games for at least 15+years.

What does “can no longer clock in at the table” mean? They don’t swipe your card at the table? Huh?

When a new game opens, you have to check in at the front podium again, pick your seat and they clock you in there.


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If you're following the new protocol, when your name is called you go back to the front desk, they swipe your card there and it puts you in the table you're going to through Bravo.

Some floor people don't follow this moronic policy and just tell the dealer to clock you in at the table, but a lot just do what they're told.
When I first found out about this policy I thought my friend was messing with me.

Yeah --- this was another real gem. 6/12 LHE game opens and people start locking up seats at the front desk with their cards, get sent to table 30, around the corner behind the cage on the way to the bathrooms. People even choose which seat they want in a new game up at the desk, I choose seat 2. "Locked up for you sir, go right to the table," front desk says. I get to the table and the computer screen has five seats locked up for "GUEST" and a bunch of other players who have camped out at seats, dealer has started overriding "GUEST" because they're getting conflicting information from the players and the floor. Three trips back and forth to the front desk for me to get my seat ironed out, then a trip to the cage for chips, plus pissing off the old guy who just went to the table to lock up seat 2 only to be told he couldn't do that, except the dealer told him he'd be fine. He lost his seat eventually, hates me for life, but then he went to play stud.

Saying Foxwoods has better LHE chip structures than Atlantic City is true, but Foxwoods has been bad over the years, and is worse than almost everywhere else? They used to run $2/$4 LHE with $2 yellow chips. Running the $4/$8 with the same chips is better, but both games (plus $3/$6) plus killed $4/$8 games everywhere else that I'm aware of runs the game in dollar chips and it makes a difference, I think.

Also, I'm showing my age (43) but Foxwoods in the late 2000s also had a nitfest $5/$10 game that ran with red chips, another 1 chip / 2 chip. It was awful, I was one of the nits destroying it.

I never saw them run an $8/16 LHE using $2 chips but I had asked them to merge the $5/$10 and the $10/$20 which were both bad into that. I don't go there anymore.

I think California always had it right with the 9/18 and 15/30 being 3 dollar chips.. insane amount of action compared to back east .

It's just my main point, that if you pay attention to what they're doing in Borgata, compared to how they run Talking Stick or any decent sized room in Las Vegas, there's no comparison. I feel bad for regulars who don't know what they're missing. Maybe there's structural reasons for the problems they have. Dunning Kruger, I don't want to be a guy complaining on the Internet. If you told me "It's illegal to have chip runners in New Jersey, so they have to be hostile to new players and make them go get chips at the main cage or wait on an insane line just to get a rack of red chips," then I guess it wouldn't be the poker room's fault and I'd understand the draconian fill from the security guard that takes 3 minutes and costs two hands rather than the dealers and floorpeople who run chips back and forth in every other card room to keep the new players happy and the games moving. But absent of reasons, I'd tell their management to go sit at a 1/3 or a 4/8 game at the Orleans (Vegas) for 8 hours, pay attention to how that place operates catering to primarily locals, and they'd improve their poker room significantly. See you guys in another 10 years.

pre covid they occasionally had people with a giant cart filled with chips selling them. I didn't see them often but once in a while on big weekend. They're definitely legal.

It's even worse now when there isn't a cage half the time. At least with a cage if I was running low on chips I could go get a bunch of black chips between hands from the cage.

What actually amazes me about some players especially regs- They'll sit around for 20 mins waiting for a seat with no line at the cage and either won't buy chips or buy enough for one buy in. Then they get to the table and want to buy chips or they bust and slow the game down reloading at the table knowing fully well how bad the system for buying chips at the table is.

I remember them having chip runners somewhat frequently in the high limit room, back in my 20/40 days--maybe 15-20 years ago. I suspect MGM doesn't want to pay for another employee. The chip runner probably worked out of the cage, and given they are continually short staffed in the cage, good luck on ever seeing a chip runner in the Borgata anytime soon. Even before MGM owned the property, the workers didn't last long because it was probably a minimum wage job and they didn't get much in tips.

I, and many of the players I recognize time and time again, color up and bring our chips home with us (I assume most of us live in the area). Many carry small sacks or bags to keep them in (the Seagram's purple sacks seem popular). But I get those who don't live in the area not wanting to do that, especially if they don't know when they'll be back. That minimizes the trips to the cage to buy or sell chips, and you have as many buy-ins as you want with you in chips. If the game was already running, there's frequently a player or two with a big stack looking to sell some off to avoid carrying them to the cage.

If you want to buy chips while waiting for a game, and the line is long at the cage, just go outside and buy chips in the pits. I used to do that after COVID when there was no cage and they were making like one fill per day at the tables. The odd looks I got from the pit dealers after they sold me the chips, I thanked them, and then put them in my pocket and walked away, lol. You won't be able buy a rack of red or white. But a stack of red, green and/or black wouldn't be unusual. They just opened that new room next door where the horse book used to be, which is a short walk. So less of a hassle than before.

Some of the dumb rules these cardrooms make is because of players making themselves a PITA. The issue with the card swiping was probably caused by players arguing over who was entitled to which seat based on list position, and not having a list available at the table for the dealer to settle disputes. Harrah's has instituted a "no chopping" rule. I have no idea why. But if I had to guess, some games, such as the low fixed limit games, have players who fold and chop a lot, because they are mainly playing for the promos, and the cardroom isn't collecting enough rake from those tables. It is probably about time to do away with those games, or at least make them ineligible for the promos (or smaller promos for the fixed limit games). They're just winning the money that mostly the no-limit players had paid.

Pretty sure I’ve seen this guy lurking around the poker rooms in borgata and trop

https://www.newsbreak.com/daily-voic...mes-prosecutor