I created a new thread in the legal forum.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/57...izona-1139512/

"I guess I made day 2 of the tourney??????"

That's ****ing gold. Thanks very much for taking the time to make the post.

I don't see how playing the game violates that statute. You are not fulfilling any of the roles they mention as a player, as far as I can see.

The state (as witnessed by the busts) thinks the game is illegal because the owner/operators benefit.

If the game has benefit for the owners, then it's not social.

The state has a list of specific exclusions for gambling that are legal, and then everything else is illegal - even for betting and wagering, a class 1 misdemeanor.

Since the state thinks that game isn't social, it isn't covered by the other exceptions, and it's illegal for the players to play in it too.

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....13&DocType=ARS

In simple: You and I can play poker, and it's social, and since it's social, it's covered in the exemptions. If someone rakes our game, then it's not social, and it's not covered by the exemptions, and we're now committing a misdemeanor crime in AZ.

Reading through the other linked forums in legal and looks like there is a lot of discussion so thanks for moving this into the appropriate spot Rapini and Palimax for the quote!!

Some extremely interesting varying views out there in the general public about all of this, and I can tell you firsthand that there are a lot of people who have no idea about the legalities, or lack there of, of what's been happening in our state regarding poker off of the reservations.

How these operations have been allowed to have their doors open for so long with blatant state laws being broken only to have the enforcement show up like they did last Friday night is beyond me. To go through that much trouble to literally scare the **** out of the players who were none-the-wiser that the place of business was actually an illegal operation of any sort and detain them as they did seems like a pretty terrible way to "enforce" the law.

Seems like it should be in the best interest of public safety and law enforcement to just go after the owners of these establishments in a much much different way then to bust through the doors with guns blazing with so many innocent bystanders all around. By innocent bystanders, I am not even referring to the potentially innocent players(as it seems there is no precedent either way regarding this as of yet) but rather, the hundreds of people just feet away enjoying a Friday night at their favorite restaurant, bar, and nightclub...all of which are located in the immediate parking lot.

All of that being said, I still am not sure where we are playing day 2 of this tournament!!

It's tricky because if you are not the one deriving a benefit from the game then you aren't the manager etc. I had an argument with AZDOG intern about whether the statute made it illegal to play online poker in Arizona.

As is they never charge the players so a judge will probably not rule on it.

Google the town of Show Low, AZ ... how you think it got it's name?

Poker, has been played for money, here in Arizona, since before Arizona was a state. It should grandfather some kinda pre-federal law. Or is it a federal law violation .... my father is the law prof. Ask him.

I think it's more of a game of skill than fantasy football is ... and that's really where it becomes very simple.

"Gambling" on fantasy football online, is not considering gambling. It's legal because it is a game of skill.

Poker does not fall into this category. It's considered gambling.

The people who write these laws ... they prolly think they are good FF players.

Every year ... since 1999 I have played Fantasy Football. I won it all once. Last year. That's about right .... you win it one out of every 12 years, w/ a 12 team league.

But I've never finished .... in 12 years .... worse than like 6-8. I've always been in contention .... skill? yeah .... the same info is out there for everyone now.

10 years ago ... you had to rely on people like me, to post here and there, about what was going on with the Giants.

Oh, wait this place didn't exist back then? OK go to FFtoday.com and search for Giants Fan .... there's a whole big history there.

Poker, in Arizona ... we may be the best players in the country ... get no respect.

Come visit! Gorgeous in the winter.

I am visiting my parents for the holidays and they recently moved to Buckeye, Arizona. I am from the east coast and not familiar with the area. Is there any good place to play 2/5 NL or 10/20 limit that is not too far of a drive.

Thanks!

Everything in Phoenix is a drive. Start getting used to it.

Short answer to your question is no. There are legally-embattled strip-mall games in your part of town, but they've been raided by the police as recently as last weekend.

Your only legally sound choice are the major tribal casinos - Casino Arizona, Gila River (multiple poker locations), and The Fort.

From Buckeye, you can go down 51st ave to Vee Queva, but it's mostly low-limit. If you want to play 2/5NL, your only choices are the games at CAZ or the 5/250 spread at Gila. 8/16 limit can be found at both as well. Bigger limit games only exist at CAZ.

I've got a spreadsheet and map somewhere. Maybe at the top of this thread

LOL, who are the cops to say you are trespassing on private property unless the owners/renters made a complaint?

It's not Federal - Nevada has poker.

The police may have notified the property managers. *shrug*

wtf?




Fantasy football was exempted from the UIGEA because the NFL has a heckuva lobby and poker does not.

My father was a fireman. As a small child, I used to engage in a lot of "my dad can beat up your dad" discussions -- since firemen were universally cool professions to per-adolescents in a pre-internet day...

I suspect "my father is the law prof" is the modern version of this.

Anyway, he is right about the Show Low name:
-Wikipedia

Poker, has been played for money, here in Arizona, since before Arizona was a state. It should grandfather some kinda pre-federal law. Or is it a federal law violation .... my father is the law prof. Ask him. Quote.

No hes not he's the postman ask you mom!

The cops still have no place declaring them trespassing.

If they worked with the property owners or management company, they could have, sure - which was exactly what you quoted. ...especially outside the business. "You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here." I have no idea if they did work with the property management company or whomever owns the building, or whatever, but that's why I wrote what I wrote with a big "IF" in on it and gave a big shrug...

Of course, everyone in the game was breaking the law, so getting told simply to leave sounds like they came out of it in pretty good shape.

Your Dad could probably still beat up my Dad. But then my Dad would sue him.

You decide who wins.

They still decide tied elections by drawing cards some places, I love that.

Everyone was breaking the law? Really judge and jury and king of speculation and ianal opinions? I need a good chuckle break so please, do tell.

If the game wasn't social - which the state believes - then none of the play in the game was social either.

If the play isn't covered by one of the exceptions (Social, State Fair, etc.), then the player's gambling is also illegal.

The owners of these rooms put their players at risk too, because they wouldn't make any money if they didn't.

Has there ever been a conviction in AZ just for playing? I really doubt it.

Not that I'm aware of. I doubt it'd happen as well; although I can imagine a scenario where someone who got tagged at one of the previous busts might get popped when/if they bust another room and he gets tagged again.

Without responding with a wall of text please locate the state statute that say players are at criminal risk for playing poker, even if the game is later determined to be unlawful.

For bonus points, avoid pointing to any ADoG interpretations.

http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....13&DocType=ARS

If you gamble, at all, in Arizona, and you're not one of the exceptions, you're guilty of a class 1 misdemeanor.

Again, it's illegal to gamble in Arizona unless your gamble falls into one of the exclusions.