yeah fellas. don't compare re-entry to rebuy tournaments. there are a lot of differences, the main one being that rebuys are usually unlimited, which can cause odd dynamics as evidenced by negreanu rebuying a million times in the WSOP a couple years ago. sure they add more money to the prize pool w/o paying more vig. but they also attract a much different type of player and tend to intimidate recreational players.

Kat thanks for responding, but you're avoiding what is the essence of our complaint. Yes, allowing unlimited rebuys in a trny makes it totally different tournament in nature. Thus there are plenty of trnies that exist that only allow 1 rebuy or add-on. Rebuy for those that bust, or dual re-buy/addon as an option at designated time. This is still much different and more preferable to the player than your double-rake re-entry solution. Your bottomline should be your main concern; we'll see however if your players are smart enough to see they're getting a raw deal on this aspect of your trnies.

As I said in previous post, there is a way to alter the rake of your tournament, once adding a rebuy option. You could marginally tweak the orig. rake or add a fractional bit of juice on the rebuy. These options are not ideal for the customer, but are understandable for low-ish buyin live trnies. And of course it's preferable to paying double rake.

lol a re-entry is so you can charge rake, and thats the only reason.

I disagree. Rebuys in Vegas daily tournaments have been tried many times before, but they have failed time and time again. Re-entry was a concept adopted from online and the experimentation done by Mat Savage at Commerce because rebuy tournaments are (incorrectly) shunned by Vegas locals, and without the locals there is no player base. Since rebuys do not work in Vegas, the re-entry concept allows for bigger money pools with the smaller fields that Vegas rooms can accommodate. Its not about the vig, thats a side effect, its all about the bigger prize pools.

You have go to trust me on this one, if it was a rebuy tournament nobody would show up.... Vegas locals think the word rebuy is bad. They are wrong, but its not easy to teach them otherwise.

^^
So they get to charge double rake because of semantics?

First I'm not sold on your theory concerning the idiocy of the local player base. That is, people have gotten somewhat more informed in recent years, so I'm not convinced they are still necessarily scared by word 'rebuy'.

As I stated above, there are different ways to sell what would be a 1 time rebuy. There are plenty of tournaments in a LA that are clearly designated as 1 RB, or 1 Add-on. It's hard to believe that the LV local base is more naive than LA's. By whatever means/attitude they've gotten there, if you're right, then we do trail behind them in this regard.

If it's understood that in this day and age you can't use the word rebuy in LV, then why must a 're-entry' trny involved double rake? That is why can't you call it a Re-Entry, and charge $230 for orig. buyin, and $200 for the re-entry? Is there a legal clause in gaming, that use of the words 're-entry' invoke double rake?

If the last few posters who advocated re-entry over rebuy are representative of the actual local player base, then sadly you may be right. Their blind and/or misguided resistance to rebuys does speak to the mentality you describe.

Are you suggesting that Aria ignore all the precedence that has been set by WSOP, Commerce, all across Europe, FullTilt (I know I know...) and other major organisations which charge a rake for re-entry? Do you know of a single place that doesn't charge rake for re-entry? I think you are barking up the wrong tree here.... your complaint should be with the system that was established long before Aria started re-entry tournaments, all they are doing is following a proven model that players seem to like, which increases the size of their field while also increasing the prize pool. Sure, I'd prefer rebuys.... but I'd also prefer a faster structure that relies on antes from the first level, its better for players but I know that it is virtually impossible because nobody would show up - its a futile argument.

I have experienced some tournaments which charge a vig for rebuys too.... there are

Tell that to the WSOP, which scrapped all of it's rebuy events and replaced some of them with multi-entries.

LA has money, Vegas does not. Vegas is actually a relativly poor city, the median household income is really low, in turn Vegas players are nittier, get really angry about the price of rake even though it is the lowest in the nation (and world in live games), and they get their noses bent out of whack over the stupidest stuff, like how rebuy tournaments are "unfair" because the guy who can spend the most has the greatest chance of winning. Sure, I agree that he general populous of players are more advanced now than they were 5 years ago, but players who play daily tournaments exclusively have not advanced that much... they tend to be players who are paying a fixed time fee for their enjoyment, and they don't enjoy it when someone rebuys. It is not logical... but it is what it is.

What makes you assume a rebuy wouldn't also charge a vig? I've seen rebuy tournaments before that charge a vig, its not as common, but they do exist.

Remember that the card room needs to pay their staff, the longer the tournament, the higher the payroll costs. Dealers in Vegas cardrooms dont like to deal tournaments because their pay gets cut from the loss of tips after each hand. It can get pretty messy if suddenly you ask the dealers to work an 8 hour shift dealing nothing but a daily tournament with a 4K prize pool.... the staffing costs could easily exceed 1/2 the prize pool! Mid-sized daily Tournaments tend to be loss leaders (not always of course), that money has to come from somewhere to pay for the staff.

Its a lost cause. Rebuys can still work for larger events, but for a daily in a high end rom like Aria it is generally a losing formula. With that said, I welcome anyone to give an example of a strong daily in Vegas with a rebuy, I would like to be corrected, that would be very cool if I was wrong, but I don't think that will happen.

Cliffnotes of TT's post:

Poker players are dumb, Aria taking advantage of the situation by giving them what they think they want, trying to teach dumb poker players why they are dumb is futile.

The most salient point you made is at the end, that it truly may be a lost cause for small DAILY trnies. Further, that the general player pool for these types of trnies isn't so sharp. Pros understand that these trnies don't have great value with the rake. This is irony of my argument, that allowing rebuys is a gamechanger there. To hit some other pts (my response in bold):


[QUOTE=*TT*;27050949]Are you suggesting that Aria ignore all the precedence that has been set by WSOP, Commerce, all across Europe, FullTilt (I know I know...) and other major organisations which charge a rake for re-entry? Do you know of a single place that doesn't charge rake for re-entry?

This is a circular argument. You stated people here have a bad association with word rebuy. So I was simply arguing why can't a place call a rebuy, a re-entry. Further to this point, two examples you've stated here are different than the type of re-entry Aria is promoting. Commerce and Full Tilt Re-entry/Multi-Entries allow a player to start again/multi w/ starting stack from starting blind level.

I have experienced some tournaments which charge a vig for rebuys too.... What makes you assume a rebuy wouldn't also charge a vig? I've seen rebuy tournaments before that charge a vig, its not as common, but they do exist.
Remember that the card room needs to pay their staff...

If you read my previous posts, I said they indeed could charge a vig on the rebuy (or factor this into orig. rake). This time for simplicity sake, I left it out of the example. Obviously, they need to keep the lights on. As I stated earlier, Commerce's weekly trny's have a rebuy vig of 20% of orig. rake/dealer fees.



Tell that to the WSOP, which scrapped all of it's rebuy events and replaced some of them with multi-entries.

This is inaccurate. No bracelet events are Re-entries. Their small buyin deepstacks use them, which are quite different.

LA has money, Vegas does not....

Although this is real factor, don't know if it tells the whole story. LA poker is a unique animal: they spread tons of games that are smaller than the smallest vegas games. People who populate these games, as well as the lo-buyin trnies (many of which are quite low) don't have great disposable funds. If things haven't changed in perceptions towards rebuys here, then the fears of LV nits you describe may be the cause.


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We're mostly in agreement. Didn't mean to derail this Aria thread, should've started a new one. You're right, this issue transcends their room. Myself and others just hoped they wouldn't follow this trend, largely set by Caesar's.

Kat - What are the typical payouts on the 1pm?

approx $3,800 for first paying 5 places with a total prize pool of around 10K

any LHE games ever get going there? 8-16 or 10-20 LHE?

Not recently; 12-24 mixed games though

Played 10/20 nl at aria on sat night, first time playing there. Had to wait over an hour to get the game going despite there being 15+ list. Have to say I am huge fan of aria poker room in general. Wifi + more comfortable environment + better food selection made it much better than bellagio. Annoying that bigger nl doesn't run there though

Hi Kat,

I'll be staying at Aria end of this month. How do I go about converting my off the rack room rate with poker rate. Do I have to play certain amounts of time - how long do you guys have to track it before you say I am eligible for poker rate.

Anybody I need to talk to change the rate? Do I talk to person before the check in? or after? Thanks.

My god, try reading the thread.

Just read through the whole thread...

I have some idea regarding the poker rate and the requirment for room rate...

However, is there a special person that handles the poker room rate? or any poker manager will be handling that?

5hrs/day requirement - is that average? or minimum of 5 hours every day? e.g. if I play 12 hours one day, and only play 2 hours next, can I still qualify for poker rate for day 1 and 2?

Thanks..

average and minimum and yes you can combine hours. Please contact Kat in the poker room 10am -5pm M thru F

Hi Kat,

What kind of PLO games will you be spreading? Planning on being in Vegas in early July. Do you run PLO high, or PLO hi/lo? What stakes and how consistently do the games get spread?

Thanks,

Setsy

Hi Kat - I will be at the Aria starting Monday. What were most people buying in for at $5/$10 and $10/$20 NL? I heard the max is $3,000 on 5/10 and buy-in is uncapped on 10/20. I just didn't know the reality as to what most people buy in for? Thanks.

5/10: $1000 or $3000

10/20: $3000-$10000

Interesting - thanks for the info. I enjoy $10/$20, but everywhere I've played it, there has been a cap of $5,000. I wonder how many people (during the weeknights during WSOP) buy in for $10,000 (or amounts over $5,000).

It varies a lot, of course, but there's usually a couple people in the game with flags.

But if you're not buying in that deep it doesn't matter too much.

We've been getting it going around 5-6pm daily. Sometimes breaks early though.

Hi Kat,

The poker rate you quoted for Aria, does that include the $20 resort fee? or is $20 fee in addition to $79/night poker rate?

Thanks.

1-3 and 2-5 PLO going daily

$79 + $20 fee comes to $110.88 per night during week