Floorman Fun:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=141

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...&postcount=147

No more wheel-spin promo. I only had 1.

Probably need to save up jackpot funds to feed into the az state championship

Oooooor, the wheel spin promo goes away when the football pool promo goes in.

You and dc are mean to me.

After a week in Vegas it makes me appreciate the "chip runners", Digital system for calling for drinks and the fact CAZ tables are not on top of eachother.... tilted by Vegas trip...

I visited the new CAZ poker room yesterday for the first time. Here are just a few thoughts. Cliffs notes: Out of town visitor played 8 hours of limit holdem, lost a little, had a good meal, and wasn't too warm.

I'm from Southern Cal, and I'm not a full time pro, but I'm a winning semi-regular player and I play a lot of live poker at a cardroom very close to my house. I had been to the old CAZ a bunch of times, because my inlaws live in central Phoenix and we come out here about twice a year, though we hadn't been for a while, so I had never been to the new place. I always liked playing at the old tent place because they seemed to do a good job managing seating, food, and chips for a pretty big room. I know the regs gripe about little things, but for the occasional visitor like me it was always a pleasant place to come play live poker against bad players.

For the most part, all of that efficiency seemed to translate over to the new permanent building. The valet drop was easy to find, and the valets were polite and conveyed a sense that my ex-cop father in law's 2010 Infinity would be safe. The poker room is a short walk from the valet; when I got there at around 1pm I first looked up at the board to see which games were going. There was a nice assortment of limit holdem games up to 8/16. I was surprised not to see any 20/40 up there, but I later found out that they keep the board for the "upper section" games (though "upper" is only a metaphor) in another part of the room. They also had listed on the main board some spread limit games up to 3/5, and there were a bunch of omaha games going as well, a greater assortment than I expected. The players rewards desk was right nearby, and I quickly got myself a card and figured out the swipe checkin system without any trouble. Just as I was being called for a seat in an 8/16 holdem game, they were calling down the list for the first 20/40 game of the day.

I decided to stay and play 8/16 for a few hours just to get my bearings in the room, and maybe have a little lunch. The first thing I noticed was that that tables are massive. I was in the 3 seat, and the guys in 7 and 8 felt like they were a million miles away. This will be important later. The 8/16 was full of bad regs who knew each other, with a couple out of town visitors like me. The play wasn't as passive as it sometimes is at those stakes; most pots were single raised, but there wasn't much 3-betting either. The regs were mostly bitter old dudes who spent their time telling unfunny stories, calling two bets cold, and complaining about the river. Standard live limit holdem fare. Speaking of fare, I found that the Thai Pepper Beef with fried rice is still on the menu, and is still amazing.

I didn't pick up many real hands for the first few hours, so I just played position. I was down a couple of racks when I played a big pot. I had 54 in the HJ and it was folded to me so I put out eight chips for a raise. A bit speculative, but I had a tight image from being card dead and the blinds had been letting me rob them a bit from that spot so, whatever. It folded around to the button who called two cold, and the BB called. Flop was 655, and they checked to me so I put out four chips for a bet. "Eight", someone said. "Kill pot". So somehow I hadn't noticed that it was a kill pot, and my eight chip preflop action was a call and not a raise. (My contacts were really killing me from swimming with my kids in the morning, and the huge tables put the flop really really far away, so I guess I was having some trouble seeing clearly. The killer was the BB, so that camouflaged the kill pot.) So I put out four more chips for the bet, and I got called by the button, who, despite being bitter and looking like a decomposing Christopher Walken, was looser than expected. Turn was the 3, giving me trips and a straight draw. Bet $32 and call. River is 9 and I bet. Now Walken raises on the button. Pot is big, he could be bluffing missed diamonds, but I really think he just has a bigger 5 and decided to be tricky and let me catch up before getting aggressive. I put in a crying call, and he shows 87 for a straight. It's probably an easy bet/fold in a game like this, but I suck and deserved to be buried, which I now was.

I thought about moving over to the 5-500 spread limit game which I had played at the old place, but it's so rare that I get to play mid-stakes live limit anymore that I decided to take advantage of chance, and I moved over to the new 20/40 must move game which started a few hours later. So it took over 20 minutes for the notoriously intertial mid-stakes players to drag themselves over to the table for the start of the game. I bought two racks and decided to play cautious until I figured out who were the marks in the game. So the first hand gets dealt and I look at KJ in MP. Frick, so much for easing into the game. So I sling in an eight chip raise. I get immediately 3-bet in the HJ, BB calls, I call. I didn't want to sit down and just lose a big pot right out of the gate, but I'm not going to sit there and open fold KJs in a limit holdem game either. Flop is Ace rag rag rainbow, so I happily check/fold. Don't get me wrong, I would have been thrilled with a spade draw or a J-high flop, but without knowing whether the 3-bettor had a real hand or was just waving his pee-pee around, I'm just fine missing. And as Tommy Angelo says (slightly modified), the best way to stay afloat is to miss every flop.

I missed a bunch more flops, lost a rack, but then finally figured out who were the tough pros, who thought they were tough pros, and who the marks were, I was able to dig myself out back up to a small loser before getting the call to move to the main game. The main game was much softer than the must move. Again, I picked up a hand as soon as I sat down, QJo in the HJ. I open and get called by BB. Flop is AJ7r. Check/bet/call. Turn 3, check/bet/call. River is a T, he checks. Again, I've never seen the BB, so I guess he's got some piece, most likely a bad ace or maybe KJ. I check meekly behind and he shows 97 or some cheese. He probably doesn't call the river, but its probably a bet, and I guess I suck again.

I played for a few more hours, and won maybe three big pots, and lost two big pots, and quit at around 8pm up a few bets in the game. Here's one big pot I lost. A limper, I raise red QQ from LP and get some callers. Flop is JTx. I bet, BB calls. Turn is 9, check/bet/call. River is K and now BB bets into me. BB is a mid 30s guy in a muscle shirt who was a bad reg and at least 4 beers deep. A guy like that could have two pairs and sets in his value range, but more likely we're chopping or he has a small flush. But something wouldn't let me just call there, because OMG I have a straight, so my hand involuntarily makes four quick stacks of four red chips. If thy hand offend thee, cut it off. He just calls somehow, and tables K3. I spend the next few minutes trying to figure out who played the hand worse.

Now my contacts were getting really bad, to the point where I was having a very hard time seeing flops, and starting to get concerned about the drive home in the dark. The drunk reg left, and most of the players from the must move had come over, so just about everybody was at least somewhat competent. Nobody was super tricky, but there were no obvious spots left in the game, so I just racked up and left.

Postscript: I went to the desk to see what I could do with my 7 hrs and 15 mins of play time. They said the minimum increment of cashability was 8 hrs, so I couldn't get any comps. Is that right? Seems weird. I may come back for one more session this week before heading back to Cal. All in all it was a good trip, and the new CAZ is a pretty nice place to play.

Oh, and there were no A/C issues as far as I'm concerned. I always got cold at the old place, so even if it was a bit warm here, I was very comfortable the whole time.

Nice TR, glad you liked the room.

W/ regard to your comp question: 8 hours gets you a $5 food comp, you will still have gotten the (lol) 20cents/hr credited to your card. If you come back and want a meal after you've played 45 minutes I recommend asking a floor person (esp the one stationed at the window next to the promo sign) to write one for you. They are pretty good w/ regard to customer service and I'd even recommend asking a floor for a food comp if you're a visitor and are only going to be there for 5 hours bec there's a decent chance that you'll get one.

You're one of the guys I wanted to say hi to while I was there. I've been lurking the CAZ threads for years and you seem like a good guy. I heard them call Howard B about one thousand times for the STTs and other games, so I guess that was you, right? I should have made an effort to find you, but I was too busy trying not to rip my eyes out from the burning.

Thanks for the info on the comps. For me, it's much ado about $5, but I'll keep it in mind for the future. As a consolation, almost having $5 in comps is way more than I ever almost had at the old place.

, I don't go on the board as Howard B. I'm glad that you'd like to say hi as I enjoy meeting ppl from this board. Please feel free to pm before your next visit.

I think it's a bad compromise. Any good omaha player who wants to see these games run much longer should petition the floor to make changes to lower their own edge in the game. I say this because it sounds like a terribly structured game that is going to burn out it's player pool in a month or two, just like the old O8 or O High spread limit game they ran a few years ago.

The problem with a full spread limit structure in 0maha is that it's too easy to build big pots early to stack bad players. While it's a great moment when a guy stacks off to you for $1k in a 2-3 game, the end result is terrible if he never comes back to play again. The current structure offers too big an edge to skilled players, and even to rocky nits, and I predict soon action will dry up because there won't be anyone else left.

It's far better to make it pot limit with the bet cap, this imposes pot control to protect bad players, and keeps the games looser and more enjoyable for the action players the games need, as well as keeping them solvent. And the games should be double blinds, i.e. $3-3, and $5-5, to create more action.

Essentially you want games with good action, but with protection, so bad players can lose at a steady rate they can afford, so they become regulars. It's better to deal with dealers/players making lots of mistakes counting the pot size for a few months until they are all used to it, than not to have these games ever run in 2012.

If management doesn't want to endure some dealer confusion from pot limit, another solution would be smaller buy-in caps, say something like $150 max buying for the Omaha 2/3 and $300 for the Omaha 3/5. By keeping the smaller games safer, more controlled, and running forever, it will create demand for a bigger uncapped (other than the $500) Omaha game. But without healthy smaller games to feed it, you'll never have a big game run much.

I suggest the better players talk to room management, my experience is they'll listen if you approach with good suggestions. A good suggestion is one that works for all parties, management, dealers, good players and bad.

Do it soon, as it's far better to be able to shear a sheep every day than to only slaughter it once.

I agree with everything you said DesertCat. These are all good suggestions. I asked about why it wasn't pot limit a few weeks ago and was told that counting the pot is too problematic for dealers.

Also, I think the games would actually be much better in general terms of looseness if they were pot limit. Right now, the $2/3 game plays similarly to PLO... but I think since the players know you can just bomb the flop it's more nitty than it would be if the max pot bet was imposed.

I've only played the game a few times, and it is very obvious there are tiers of skill levels here. Usually a few excellent players, some mediocre regs, and then some atrocious guys who have no clue. The last few times I played, the latter group of players got destroyed over and over again. They probably won't come back if the structure doesn't change.

You observations are valid, but the primary issue that is see is that there just isnt a large enough player base or interest for straight high Omaha games to create a solid regular game(at CAZ) in my opinion.

The 3/5 OH game has already disappeared as far as i can tell "because it plays WAY bigger the the 3/5 TH game", the variance was huge, the players dont want to or cant fade those losses, your point exactly.

The 2/3 game is staring to follow suit on a relative scale, the game drew players from the 8/16 and some of the 4/8 for a period of time to the point where those limit game failed to run or died early on occasion, but those player are filtering back to their familiar structure.

If the structure of the High Omaha game was changed to PLO ,the player base get narrowed even further even though it would be better for the variance of the game, PLO scares players who are unfamiliar with the limit.

Spreading PLO might draw new players by word of mouth eventually, but it wouldn't be the "bad" players that would "support" the game by losing at a steady but manageable rate, the game would be full of rocks and nits looking for the fish (which wont be there) and it would die anyway.

I don't see it becoming pot limit any time soon. I say that because I don't think the dealers are capable, nor do I think it's worth the time to train them to become competent.

I think lowering the cap to say $150 max would make it even more brutal. There would be even more all in shoves which is bad for the game.

The only suggestions I can come up with are to spread the 1/3 on table 19 which is right in front of the board. This is where people stand around when waiting to be called for a table. If people can stand around for a bit and watch, they'll realize that the game is not that intimidating. Yesterday the game was on table 35, which is between the blackjack and the food service entrance...in other words, "over in the corner."

Also, and this one may be unthinkable for management, but how about promoting the game for a month with say, a reduced rake? The Venetian did this for their Omaha/8 tables and took over the market. I know it won't fly with the powers that be, but maybe some other way to promote or get people to try the game. Any ideas? Free <insert idea here>. How about a buck or two off food purchase while playing at this table. Something!

I realize that sometimes you need an act of Congress to try something new, but who makes the decisions? That is, who has the authority to make the decisions.

I know that I have suggested to the CEO to have a rep of the card room to post in this forum to answer questions like the Venetian, but that didn't get much of a response.

I still think pot-limit, even with a 250/500 cap is still not something that's codified in the room rules and/or governed by the compact, and might be the sort of decision that has to go to someone in tribal gaming -- not just a decision by the floor person.

[This is why I suspect the game is already being run as SL instead of PL.]

As has been pointed out, 1/2 PLO (or SLO) already plays like 2/5 and so on. This game will, eventually, get spread (in some variation) because the world is changing. Years ago there was no NL (SL) in Arizona - but the world got crazy for NL. PLO is clearly here to stay, and it's only a matter of time before it's at CAZ to stay.

To help this game survive its infancy, it needs to be a 1/2 game with shallow buy-in maximums. Even at those limits, those players experienced in the game are going to ABSOLUTELY CRUSH new players, not just because they understand the betting structures, but because "casual" players to the game are going to stack off with things like bottom set way too often.

I run a game that is essentially half 1/2 PLO (high) and BigO/8, and I see the same things happen there. Perfectly competent NL players have small wins and losses during that portion of our play, and then *WHAMMO* they go broke in PLO/BigO. Now I have to worry that I don't lose the casual players in my game -- who like Omaha - who can't win at Omaha long-term.

The game needs to run smaller to survive.

I'm flying out to AZ tomorrow and plan on stopping by CAZ for a little bit. I will be playing either 2/3 or 3/5 and I was hoping someone could give me a clarification on the spread limit as I am used to NL. So, in 2/3 the max bet is 300 correct? Does this mean that if someone bets 115 can I raise to 415 or does it have to be 315? Can someone reraise to lets say 700 (assume I can raise to 4115)? Is there any cap to the number of raises?

It is a limit game, so there is a bet and three rise cap.

The betting caps for each limit game are either 250 or 500, so action can go as high as:

Bet 250, raise to 500, re-raise to 750, cap it! $1,000
Bet 500, raise to 1k, re-raise to 1.5k, cap it! 2k.

This, of course, doesn't happen often.

Straddles allow an extra bet, so it could also do something dumb like get capped by min-raises around $50 or so...

In 95% of hands, the game simply plays like NL.

I'm sure that one of the Phoenix dealers or players more familiar with the CAZ game will correct subtle details - but that's functionally correct above.

I suggest you spread the omaha high as a limit game with a double bet on the end.

something like a 2/3 game that is 15-30-60. That will protect the fish for months and teach them to play a sillier strategy that won't help them when a real PLO or SL gets running.

I doubt the big bet egomaniacs would accept it though, Omaholics are notorious for acting against their own interests.

Thanks for the $300 correction. I'm mostly playing the $5-250 at Gila when I'm playing spread-limit these days.

many years ago we had an "interesting" Omaha game on a riverboat dealt on,
Blinds were 2/2
betting was 2-10 spread 20 on the end

I figured that's what it was, don't they have an spread Omaha game?
What is that structure/lineup like?

If they do, it's new.

Rarely do I see much other than the 4/8 O8 (w/ half kill) go.

I only referenced the $250 because I'm used to the 1-2-5-250 Gila Hold'em game.

I play 2/3 and 3/5 and rarely is the max amount hit. The 3 raise per street gets hit more than max...

2-100 spread. Max 300 buyin.