What if two people pat? Who goes first? Left of the dealer? High card on board?

From Bravo:

"The $20-$40 Holdem Game is back like you want it!

Starting July 1st - September 1st the $20-$40 Holdem game will be take a $2 house drop and $2 HPF drop. This game will now be eligible for all house funded promotions like bad beat jackpots, aces cracked, high hands and more.

Come play in the relaunch of the most popular game in Arena Poker Room's history!"

Current status: 0 games going and 7 on list (7:45pm Mon 7/1)

Wasn't it a time game before? I can't remember for sure.

Yes, it has always been a time game since I've been playing it ('06 I believe).

They are changing it to try to re-kindle it, see above.

Left of dealer I think.

The temporary low rake may temporarily revive the game, but if they eventually go back to full rake + promo, that will be taking a lot more money off the table than previously and very likely it will start dying again.

Day #2 of “20/40 Revival”
Tuesday at 6:30pm observation
0 games and 3 on list for 20/40 LHE
2 games and 2 on list for 20/40 mix
2 games and 0 on list for 40/80 LHE

They should make the 40-80 a jackpot game.

I think I disagree.

My thinking is as follows. Assume 7 handed on average, 30 hands an hour. Previously the 20 was hugely robust while time was $14/hour per player ($98/hour to house). If they were to rage $4+1 for jackpot, it would take $150/hour off table. But $30 is going back to the players (and predominately to the biggest gamblers), so it’s really $120/hour in rake, or $22 more than time was, or $3/hour per player. The winning player who makes $40/hour isn’t going to notice, nor the break even player who was already losing $14 hour to time, nor the action player already losing $60 an hour.

In fact it’s less noticeable than time charges to most players so it’s less objectionable. What most players care about more than a few bucks more an hour in rake, is whether they can count on games running when they want to play, and that they can get in them without long waits. If you like playing 20 and you can be confident a game is always running you’ll play more often. If you love to gamble you’ll love jackpots.

To that end, not to come off like Daniel Negreanu but I think they should do something like $4+$2, so jackpots are paying off constantly. And then I’d hire some props to start and keep games going short handed. Pay $20/hour, maybe costing $25/hour with benefits, but since they pay rake it only costs the house $8/hour to have a prop in a game. And I’ll bet the game runs far more often on more tables this way, generating more net rake in total.

Why do you think that? I assume it's not in the pool because most of the players didn't want it. That is true with the bigger limit games in many places.

How much is the rake in the smaller games?

Regarding the differences you mention above, I just don't see that making the game stronger.

If they're trying to get the game going now by having low rake, and people start playing based on that, then those are the type of players who notice the rake.

Some players definitely won't notice or care about the rake, but they still may notice that they have fewer winning sessions, and less money available to play poker with.

I was joking about the 40/80, as like a live table, I always get <crickets> to my jokes.

You are definitely right some players care about rake, I just think they also want to play with players who don’t know or care about it, so they’ll play high rake games if they have lots of action players.

Taking money off the table should be a concern, I’m just not convinced that a couple dollars an hour extra would be a big difference when most players are paying $16/hour (current time charge) or $60+ an hour from their bad play. You will be right if it remains a small static pool of regulars, I would be right if it grows the player pool significantly and brings in many more part time players who now can be confident their game runs. That would grow the pool of available money, and almost all of these people work, and some would be diverting spending from other monthly entertainment to poker.

Maybe pope or a current regular can tell us, but I got the impression that most of the people who used to play 20/40 LHE aren't staying home because the game is no longer regular, but they are playing the current 40/80 LHE or the 20/40 mix game.

It seems like there are already more high limit players than when I was a 20/40 regular in 2012-13. At that time there were usually two tables of 20/40 LHE and one 40/80 mixed game. Neither of the two games that seem to be popular now even existed then (except a twice weekly 20 mix at a different casino).

Anyway, if there are often 4 high limit games going now, that's one more than generally was going before things started changing. If the 20 game does make a comeback, I think it's more likely to be at the expense of one or both of those games, not because of additional players in the room.

NL helped break up the player pool more.

When it was $150 cap LHE was king

When it was $500 cap the spread limit games got bigger and more tables.

Now with true NL there are sometimes 20 games between 2/3 and 3/5 going

Now there's no max bet in AZ? I hadn't heard that change.

There are a few people who became frustrated with the fragility of 20/40 and either stopped playing or play 8/16. The last three times I was there the game either broke or they turned it into a 40/80. There is also a tables worth of players who have been banned in the last couple years. I'm pretty convinced we lost some of our older regs during the pandemic. There are a few seasonal limit players who went back home. We also had several players move away. There are 4 or 5 players who play mostly the 3 game mix. A few used to sometimes play 20/40 as well but lately they don't seem to bother with it. I talked to one long time reg who is only playing NL now. He thinks both 20/40 an 40/80 are gonna die soon so he's making the pivot now.

It's hard to think 20/40 is gonna make a comeback. The mix games are just getting more popular. The player pool is aging and not being replenished by new players. The current crop of players prefer to play 40/80 so even if a 20 starts players will leave it to go to the 40.

40-80 is the new 20-40. Instead of attempting to rebuild the 20 they should try a 15/30 with $10/$15 blinds to promote action.

The problem is without a regular 20 (or 15/30) game the 40 will eventually die because 8/16 is too big of a jump. I remember when I was first moving up and wishing we could get a 10/20 or 12/24 game to help close the gap, boy was I spoiled. That was when there were multiple 6/12 and 8/16 LHE going along with 2-3 20s, 1-2 40s and 1-2 60/75 games

The 40 has become very fragile as well. The game seems to be going super short. It seems to be built around a few players. If they stop showing up it's over.

I don't think the 20 has gone since they moved it to the low limit section. It seems it's just gonna be the feeder game to the 40 anyway.

well this is all a bummer. I guess I'm glad I got one last set of 20-40 sessions in during this year's trip.

I am a couple of years away from semi retiring, and Scottsdale is a place my wife and I are strongly considering for a second home location. We spent a couple of weeks there earlier this year at an airbnb. We will probably spend another 4-8 weeks there sometime in 2025.

I am an amateur NLHE tourney only player. I played in a couple of tourneys at Talking Stick earlier this year, and I enjoyed the experience. The tourneys were very friendly and fun. I definitely will return to Talking Stick in 2025.

My question to the forum is, are there any other venues within driving distance of Scottsdale that have NLHE tournaments that are worth me checking out? An online search shows Gila River Casino - Lone Butte as drivable and having NLHE tourneys. Anyone have an opinion on the quality of these tournaments and this venue?

I also see Desert Diamond Casino has tourneys, but the starting chip stacks seem really tiny and there are 10 minute levels which sounds like it would be massively turbo-ey.

I am already sold on Talking Stick. I very much liked the new room and the tourney experience there. Any thoughts people have about NLHE tourneys elsewhere that are within driving distance of Scottsdale will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for any insight.

Lone Butte is the only other regulated casino in the Phoenix metro area that has NLHE tournaments. DD continues to not have tournaments, at least in their Phoenix location.

TS is considered to be the Cadilac of poker rooms. I play tournaments at both TS and LB (and occasionally cash at DD). TS has the grinders/regs/pros. Also, bigger buy-ins (usually), bigger prize pools, larger fields. LB dailies especially can be turbo-y. But LB does have a more laid-back vibe (IMO), more casual. Competition can still be good, though.

I play at both regularly if not often.

Thanks for the response.