I find that hard to believe, they have been letting players wife's deal to them and even the dealer wife play in the same game as husband in 20-40 & 40-80. Put now stop customer married couples the same rights.
Now as far as how" Pleasant" the 20-40 players are they are some of the nicest people I have ever played with. I have played in almost every room in the western states and every room for
Months at a time. You higher limit people think you are so special and are so wrong. If you asked the regulars they would tell you that some of the higher limit players are nice people but many are very rude, abuse of, and jerks. They run over the dealers and are always trying to run the games and make all the decisions at the table. The reason some of the 20 players do not play in the higher games is because of the player field. That and the fear of collusion, there are now some 20 40 players who like some of the higher limits players are short on money and loan back and fourth. This has ruined all lot of great games across the country.
Another thing that also has ruined and coses some loss of players is talking about peoples wins , losses and plays." Especially dealers" talking about players so openley about playes and losses.
This never use to go on years ago, but has realy gotten out of hand in the last year.
Also alot of dealers are getting worst instead of better. The managment does not seem to watch how they are doing. They should not be in conversation with players, some even butt into two players conversations and comment. Managment needs to direct them to tell players sorry will have to talk to you away from table.
So if the house is going to let higher limit players scream and holler and play in the 20 games and belittled players when they get there and get beat by them. They want weak players making bad draws but when they get there they act like complete idiots and chase the soft players out of the games. ( I just saw this happen, were in just a couple of hours 3 players just picked up and left. one the idiot even through his cards at. So one big mouth cost us 3 players in just one game). Now how many also left because of his behavior I can not know but the 3 who picked up immediately yes and the dealers never said a word to the abuser.

You guys are such geniouses and 20 -40 players in your words are" so unpleasant "so please stay out of our games. Sorry you can not get enough players who want to put up with you high limit sweet hearts. Yes there a lot of 20 players that have more money than probably all of you put together but do not want to play with some of you gentelman.

Talking Stick wake up, you do not need these idiots who play for a living and chase customers out of your store. You get one of them at the cost of how many players you loose.

This is one of the silliest posts I've ever read. The only valid point that you make is that strong players berating bad ones is bad for games. This is definitely an issue but it's more likely to occur between two bad players.

Why on earth would you care if a wife dealt to her husband? You think they are going to deal the cards differently to their significant other? You realize that the shufflers are random and that everything is on video? The three wife/dealers that immediately come to mind are amongst the best in the room.

Why would you care if people loan money back and forth?

In my experience, overall the high limit players including those in 20/40 are friendly. There are of course exceptions. The 20/40 oe is a slightly different animal. The nature of the games played attracts nits and there are a shocking number of disputes and floor calls for a relatively easy to deal mix game. That being said many of the oe regs are friendly.

Hint: There are no winning 40 regs who match this description.

But you are right that there are jerks who play the 40, and some of the winning 40 players don't always steam well, and on rare occasions I've seen one berate a dealer. But my overwhelmingly experience with them is very positive. The winning 40 regs help manage the game, catch mistakes and ensure it's run fairly for all, and are very friendly and pleasant to play with.

And they care about enforcing fairness of the game, many times I have personally seen situations where a mistake would have benefited a winning reg, but the reg stopped the action and made sure the mistake was corrected, whatever it was, improper button position, improperly shipping them part of a pot in one of the weirder games, etc. You can count on these players to post their kill whether the dealer tells them or not, and on the rare times a kill is missed, they almost always are first to remember and voluntarily post their kill in same or worse position so they gain no advantage from the omission.

I will also admit when a dealer misses something in the 40 mix (hate the word "mistake" given so many moving parts in the various games) occasionally regs can be blunt about it. Often it's because it's a sub par dealer and this latest oversight is just par for their course in the mix games. But can also happen occasionally when a good dealer just misses something, and even though players dropped the ball too, sometimes a stuck reg will be rude to the dealer. But it's rarely a winning reg.

I play both games. There are good and nice people in both, and there are jerks in both. The difference is most OE regs don't cultivate their game well. They are predominantly me first players. Some seem to feel if a dealer makes a mistake in your favor, it's not your job to point it out, but if it benefits their opponents, they demand it be fixed, even if it's a minor issue that doesn't warrant it.

The 40 is a friendlier game because the winning regs understand they have to play with the same players every day and behave to make the game friendly and pleasant. One example, one winning reg in particular who used to exhibit subpar game demeanor has improved greatly, and clearly worked at it and cares about how they are perceived by their peers.

But unfortunately there are always players who consider themselves winners but lose all self control when on big downswings and act like total *******s to the dealers and the table. I hate to see it when it's someone I play with regularly, but don't know what I can do to help, just hope they turn things around. I know sometimes behind an angry steamer there is a decent person, just driven temporarily miserably insane by a bad run of cards.

I think its cool what they are doing with football pool for hi limit. Glad I get to go back to playing on sundays.

BTW: I spoke to one OE reg I respect greatly and I hope he posts his thoughts as well but suffice it to say he disagrees with some of what I wrote, so clearly I may be wrong on some points.

But I am clearly right on one point. Both games have some jerks, but also some good regs and it's important for regs to do their best to ensure their games are fair and friendly for everyone, especially new and visiting players. And that includes assisting your dealers whenever possible, we aren't playing holdem, it's a much harder job for them.

And that includes your fellow regs, don't tolerate or ignore poor behavior, speak up, whether on the spot or away from the table. Try to help them understand how good behavior and fairness is good for the game. I'm not perfect either, so you see me slip, call me out.

And here are a few rules that I think constitute at least some of what should be good conduct for regs in the High Stakes section (everything from 20 up).

1) Stop seat changing to chase fish. They know what you are doing and will just be moving again soon to get away from you. You make them uncomfortable and the game less enjoyable for everyone.

If you see a winning reg who seat changes relentlessly, save your seniority and use it to block them when the very best seats open up, until hopefully they get the message.

2) Stop calling string bets in the kill pots. No one is abusing it or getting "reads" from doing it, and if you think you've found the one unicorn that actually is using unclear motion to "read" their table, just complain to the floor, don't make your game ****tier by calling string bets. Remember, it's new players and tourists that get caught by this rule the most, and it can easily piss them off. Don't you want new players in your games?

The one exception is for a player who regularly calls string bets, in that case watch them closely and call it on them as often as possible.

3) Don't slow-roll. Just turn your hand over, even if it's not your turn. The information you give up is almost nothing and speeding the game means more hands for everyone, making it more enjoyable and more profitable if you are a winning player.

Unless the player is a slow-roller, then slow roll them relentlessly until they get the message.

4) Don't button people. If you are playing short-handed (i.e. 5 handed or less), give the table the courtesy of notice if you don't plan to take your blinds. If you mislead other players about your intentions to continue, it isn't good conduct by any means.

Unless a regular buttoner will be the BB while you are are UTG, then do it to them relentlessly.

5) Take your blinds in must move games even when you are next to move. It's really silly CAZ lets players sit around forever with a missed blind because they are next to move and want to steal free hands from both tables. There is no reason CAZ shouldn't make players who have a missed blind button must move with it. That promotes more players actually playing poker, making the games better and eliminating one scourge of regs stealing free hands from other players.

6) Don't say you will start games you don't intend to play. Don't agree to play and then change your mind because your game just got better. Don't sit down only to play "high card lotto" and see if you can win the right to play 1 to 7 free hands, then quit at your blinds to go to your preferred game.

Again it's silly again that CAZ allows players say they will help start a game and then allows them stay in their existing game after the rest of the game starters have lost their seats, or lets them come back to their game right after stealing free hands from the players in the new game. And it sure makes it a lot harder to start new games, and starting new games I think is good and important for the room and all of us.

The room should require players who agreed to start a new time game to pickup from their existing games when the new game dealer is ready. And if they change their minds or decide to quit the new game, they should have to wait at least a full down after the new game started before going back or to another time game.

Question: if I plan to leave soon and get moved to must move how long should I play at minimum? It seems coming in behind and leaving before bb would be sleazy so how long before getting up would be reasonable?

If it isn't short and I'm leaving at next dealer change (time charge) I just play normal and then leave. No big deal in non short games IMO. Either that or just leave instead of moving if it is like 5 minutes.

Not sleazy at all, just play the round and leave, lots of ppl do it.

I agree, nothing wrong with playing one round and then leaving. Maybe you were going to leave soon anyway and just played your button and had to move, you're not even getting any advantage there.

Howard, just because lots of people do something (or someone) doesn't mean it's not (or they aren't) sleazy. But in this case you are right.

If you are owed free hands you have right to take them. Every case I cited in my post is about players angling to get more than their fair share of free hands.

It was no criticism of you at all, your post was aimed at keeping the recs happy. I thought kind of CL's way a few years ago and one day I got called from a great MM game to the lousy, nitty main game, picked up and headed to the cage. A pro reg friend intercepted me, said he knew why I was leaving, but said I should play my free round even if it meant playing super nitty. I thought it over and since it's not breaking any rule I might as well.

There are prob more free hand anglers in the 8-16 than anywhere else. I wish CAZ would stop allowing unlimited free seat changes at the lower limits.

ETA bec I re-read your post. I always took my blinds even when I knew I was next to move and completely agree w/ your view. I had a standard 'joke': I'd complain that the floor didn't tell me to move until he'd made sure that I'd posted my blind. lol? It happened all of the time. Still, I don't know what a solution to what you describe would look like.

Oy vey, re-read again: moving w/ the missed blind button would work but it's also more work for the floor who has to ensure that the player only misses the number of hands he's supposed to.

Howard, dk what you mean about the floor keeping track of the number of hands. In Atlantic City, if a player has a missed blind button it moves with him, and there is nothing to keep track of other than that. He is treated the same as if he missed his blinds at the main game, and he will get no hands without posting.

If I'm moved from a seat needing to wait 6 hands bec I missed the blinds into the BB's seat in the new game aren't I gaining something in a time game?

Edit: Howard, did I understand your question correctly?

No, you are taking hands in same position you would have been in, had you not moved. You will still pay the same amount of blinds for the same number of free hands.

Example, you play your button and move. You tell dealer you want to deal off, the dealer should make you wait until your new seat is the cutoff. Then you can resume getting the free hands you "are owed" from last time you paid your blinds.

The one exception is when you first enter a game and are required to post. If you post behind you never pay the small blind, but to gain that advantage you didn't get to play your button/SB/BB. Given the value of being playing the button and 2 additional hands, it's not a clear advantage to post behind.

I've noticed the toughest thinking players I play against often take the BB at first opportunity, which indicates to me they don't think posting behind is better. Or that they just can't wait to gamble, lol.

Howard, looks like I misread your question. Are you talking about a situation where you are waiting to deal off in the must move, and then get moved to the main?

In that case you are still owed free hands and I see no problem with allowing you to come in the CO without posting in the new game. Obviously it could be manipulated by players next to move. Worst case would be not taking a UTG hand, and saying they want to deal off gambling they'll be moved before being UTG again next round.

But that's less of a problem, they are now surrendering at least one free hand, and it's more work on their part. There are at least 3 possible solutions that come to mind if it's abused, with varying degrees of fairness and extra work for the floor.

1) Just give players dealing off in must move a missed blind at the new table. It's the least fair option, but simplest for the floor and totally eliminates the angle for free hands.

2) Only give them a missed blind at the new table if they dealt off without moving seats at must move table. Dealing off is most often used naturally when you move seats. If you deal off without moving seats, then it's likely you were trying to game the must move, so you probably deserve a blind.

It would make it impossible to angle this way at a full table since you can't move seats to setup your "free hand deal off" play. But since there are often open seats in the must move, it's not eliminating this angle entirely.

Most importantly it's much fairer than #1, with only a little more work for the floor and dealer. If they player says hey, I don't really have a missed blind, I was dealing off, the floor just has to ask the dealer, did the player move positions (not just seats, did they actually jump over other players) to deal off? If not, give them a missed blind at the next game.

3) Only allow must moved players to take hands in new game without posting in the same or worse position they left in must move. IE, if they play their blinds and button in must move then move to main, they can come in the cutoff for free. If they were UTG, they can come in UTG for free.

This is the perfectly fair solution, can't be angled easily, and it doesn't seem like too much work to me, but I'm not a floor or a dealer so my opinion is likely wrong. It's only angle is having players lying about the position they were moved from, but that's pretty easy to catch with 2 tables of players watching.

I think any of these is a reasonable solution if the actual mechanics of floors and dealers implementing them isn't excessive.

Besides having a low opinion of some players and therefore thinking that this might happen too often there's also the possibility of genuine confusion w/ the attendant floor decision and waste of time. I just think that it's tough to police and the ppl looking to take every advantage might get a bit of one. OTOH, maybe they don't get called to move and miss hands that they've paid time for. Then they can be laughed at which is worth something.

I don't play fixed limit games at TSR (when I'm there I play the 3-5 or 5-10 spread). I can't say I've noticed folks trying to angle the blind posting in those games, but maybe I'm just not paying attention? Is it really that serious in the limit games?

New rule proposal: if you stick gum on bottom of table you get banned for life or have to pay $500 to person you gummed. I've had it happen 4 times now, mostly at table 10 and I'll be paying close attention to hik chewers.

Buy an ice scraper. Might have to order online, this being Phoenix, tho.

ETA: A stiff, short spatula will do and it's prob what the cleaning crew uses.

It's not all that bad at 8-16. The worst offender was barred for a different reason a year ago but there are a few that'll grab free hands if they can just before they plan to leave. Most of the seat changing at that level is 'lucky seat' hunting so I never say anything.

Absolutely true - if they are changing to get the lucky seat more power to them. And I do see that in many casinos - someone has won a bunch of money and leaves then someone at the table will immediately say "I want that seat". Again, more power.

You're talking about a five dollar blind, not a twenty or forty dollar blind like these guys are talking about

Actually they don't allow seat changes in the high limit section without posting or waiting, so the biggest blind anyone can avoid is $8.

Well I play 5-10 when it goes, but I see what you are saying. Still pretty short sighted if you are a winner in those games seems to me. But maybe the players doing it are not really winners?