That's just sickening when you think that is 100% of player's money that isn't in circulation.

Maybe the new director has a plan we are not aware of yet. Quiet down, sheeple.

The whole BBJ idea is a total scam on players and always has been. Even places that supposedly are well regulated have had scandals regarding thefts from the funds. It's the modern-day equivalent of snatch-and-grab poker games where the dealer sneakily took as much extra rake as he could get away with. It blows my mind how so many lower-limit players have bought into this and get excited about getting a fraction of their money back, only to pay taxes and tips on that, but I guess it is related to why the games are so good.

Bee in your bonnet?

Lol, wow. Do they plan on giving this back in some way? I play in a room of similar size of this room, that has slightly better promotions, and they only take $1. $2 is a scam indeed.

Today I asked a floor what's up w/ the fund and was told 'would you like me to send somebody over to explain it to you?' and I said sure but nobody ever showed up. Not that it matters to me very much bec these days I'm playing the 20-40 0/E (no BBJ drop in that game for those that aren't regs). But to keep at least $600K out of the poker economy is absurd.

I would say it effects red chip players a ton fwiw.

OnTheRail, I agree, can you please explain how/the math of this.

Instead of lower games being more beatable meaning people move up more often after running good, the money instead is rewarded in lump sums to players at all levels, many of who just pocked the money and remove it from the poker economy or if it does return, it does so slowly at the level they have always played. Giving smallish winners at 8/16 a $5/hour winrate boost or whatever by removing promotion drop means more will move up to 20/40, as that isn't 'found' money but instead 'earned' money by being amazing at poker.

^ True, and that is even assuming all the money makes its way back to the players. As the disgustingly huge PPF (and scandals at other places) have shown, it often does not.

The 8-16 games are also going to be much tougher come football season when 20/40 regs decide to move down and play 8-16 instead. For example, I come in and play Sundays just so I can watch all the football games at same time. Since I don't get my tickets anymore there's a chance I decide to watch the games at 8-16 instead of 20-40.

It's not so much math as logic. In addition to pope's point, which is true, the bbj makes it less likely that bad players run hot for a few weeks and decide to move up to the red chip games. In a "normal" poker economy the money travels up while the casino takes a cut. The jackpot fund redistributes money in a totally different manner.

I admit I hadn't considered the effect of the BBJ sufficiently. Somewhere in here I suggested that the room lower the BBJ to $1 and credit the player's cards $1/hr and stop the food tickets. The problem is that I don't think that any one person is in charge (even the casino president) and that would be a very hard thing to do. Given the terrible comp credits for casino play isn't very encouraging.

I understand your points to an extent here, but any regular player who DOESN'T get excited about any type of Rakeback, albeit only small % of it, is probably doing it wrong.

The casino rake is just a poker players cost of doing business. As with any business, if you are unhappy with the costs, the person is free to conduct their business elsewhere.

Scandals and thefts happen in all walks of life when there is money "to be had" by the dishonest and the greedy. To single out poker promo funds is probably a little unfair. (Although yes, to your point, time and time again casinos and gamblers, poker players in general, continue to pop up in the headlines for being involved in them).

A final note, the point of paying taxes on the winnings is fairly mute. Taxes of any winnings/income are always the sole responsibility of the players, it's just that in the past, the casino was reporting jackpot winnings incorrectly as a 1099-misc income to the player and the IRS, even tho the winnings come from a player funded prize pool, which makes them clear cut gambling winnings and should be able to have losses offset them. It has been revealed from several floor and players now that this will no longer be the case, and no 1099-misc forms will be filed by the casino to players and/or IRS for promotional fund/jackpot type wins. It wasn't made clear if you would get the correct W2-G form or not, or how the casino will handle their end of reporting these funds being paid out to the IRS, but in any case this makes a huge difference for all the obvious reasons on any poker players tax returns, professional or otherwise.

Just the two cents from someone who does happen to play a lot of BBJ funded games/limits, although that really has little or no bearing on my views or opinions (or facts) stated above.

My point about the taxes is not moot. Let's say I would be a break-even poker player if not for the jackpot. Let's also be generous and say I will get all I have contributed to the jackpot drop back in a big jackpot every ten years.

Now for 9 years I am a poker player with a small loss rate of a few dollars per hour due to the jackpot drop. On the 10th year I hit a big jackpot, WooHoo! I just got all my money back...but now I am a winning poker player that year and have to pay taxes on my jackpot. I cannot deduct the losses from the 9 previous years.

The only way the jackpot will not have negative tax consequences is if I am such a big losing player that I have enough gambling losses every year to offset what I win the year I hit the jackpot.

If they have fixed the type of tax form given with jackpots, that's great, but I didn't even know about that and that had nothing to do with my argument.

Regardless of whether we play timed or jackpot raked games, everyone receives rake back from the casino amounting to 20 cents (I think) an hour on our card. Rake is the 'equivalent' of the time taken at the higher limit tables. It goes to the casino. The amount on our cards is rake back that comes from the casino. The jackpot drop; however, is not rake. It is an amount of each pot taken out to fund the promotions and the bad beat jackpot. This is not the casino's money but belongs to the players. That's why it is kept separate and it's amount reported on the board. The casino decides how to redistribute it to the players.

When I played in the lower limit jackpot games, I did really well on the redistributed jackpot funds. I played a lot of hours and paid jackpot drop for about a year and a half. I also won 2 table shares, a small end of jackpot and a big end totaling almost 40 thousand in just jackpot winnings. Adding in wheel spins and other promotions the amount is probably close to 45k. Let's say I played 2000 hours over that stretch or 4000 downs. If I won on avg one pot per dealer down at 2 dollars of jackpot drop per pot, I "paid" roughly 8000 over that period.

So I ran hotter than the sun jackpot and promotion wise and did well. I didn't mind paying taxes on the winnings because I had real gains on these promotions. Even though I really should only have paid tax on my gains, I realize there is no way on earth that my tax basis in the jackpot fund could be established. But again I ran hotter than the sun jackpot/promotion wise.

The reality is that it is really difficult to hit a BBJ. Many of the players will never hit one. There are lots of ppl at the low limit that have played every day since the casino opened and haven't even gotten a table share. And without getting at least a small end of a jackpot, most players will lose on the redistribution of player monies through the jackpot drop. When they do finally win one, they are paying taxes on the gross amount just like I did; but the chance of them having a true gain net of what they paid in is very low.

For this and other reasons I eventually decided I didn't want to play in the jackpot games anymore. For me, it didn't make sense to continue paying jackpot drop. Although I wish that the timed games still got football tickets and other promotions, I realize that we were getting the best of both worlds. I'd certainly rather not have them and not have to pay 2 dollars of every pot that I win.

It honestly shocks me how incredibly naive most people are in regard to the rake and drop at the low limit games. If you sit in one of those games for a few hours with a stable lineup, you can see with your own eyes as the stacks on the table get smaller. A lot of the money ends up in the drop boxes.

So don't get too excited when you receive some of that "jackpot" rake back as you called it. The reality is that at least some percentage of it(likely a high percentage) is the casino returning you your own money.

Didn't they also spend some of that money? Like for advertising or something like that?

Not to mention on paying Phil Hellmuth to come to their tournament.

WOW WTF. I've played a lot more hours than you at lower limits and was happy I won the big end of a jackpot for $6k and have another 1-2k returned in other promotions. You are spoiled.

I've played maybe an average of 20 hours a week for the last 8 years and have never even been at a table with a hand that would qualify for a jackpot (whether it was a jackpot eligible game or not). So I guess that does sour me on the whole jackpot idea even more.

I'm pretty sure that Ubintook passed down from mgmt that Hellmuths fee was NOT paid out of the BBJ fund but I could be wrong.

What about the float/interest generated by the fund? Does this go back into the fund or is it absorbed by CAZ? When the fund is in the 7 figures this isn't insignificant.

This was exactly my point. I was incredibly lucky and I got out when I was ahead...

They made it very clear this money did not come from the jackpot fund and enjoyed having him here, he was entertaining and generated a lot of buzz in the room.

As for bad beats, I would have won the big end at least 3 times already but none of the hands were in jackpot games.

Oops, sorry about the misunderstanding on the Hellmuth thing. I remember it being discussed but forgot the resolution. I also remember there being discussion about the source of funds that were used for money-added tournaments and advertising for tournaments. I know there was speculation that it came from the PPF but don't know if it was resolved.

Ya I meant to say moot, lol, but I should just be mute on the topic since I'm probably wrong in viewing promo wins as a form of rakeback.