I just rip this when action comes to me the first time.

As played.. I might fold sadly. I agree with what someone else said about location. If he is Brazilian or Russian [some others inc] I am def not folding and I'm expecting exactly what he shows up with; 55-JJ, Ax/s, K10s+ and such nonsense. Based off his sizing my money is on Russia.

Idk who is actually paying attention to tables these days but people are still getting it in with a lot of really LOL stuff. I mean, a lot of you must be folding QQ here and never seeing the b/s that they're trying to donk off with.

I don't mind 3b as long as you aren't folding unless there is some ridiculous action from known thinking players behind. Its ok to fold if you 3b and a reg 4b not all in. More regs are 4bAI their entire range here now. When I see a bad reg (not luis toscano(with 88+) but like a ppmaster type) 4b oop in a 3b flat multiway pot pre its almost always AA. Other than that, they are ripping it all, some go 10s+, most JJ+ AKo. I think the best regs are just ripping aa/kk because they know they are getting the action and oddly enough its more disguised. If regs want to read this post and think omg I'll start 4b bluffing these spots then, great, go for it.

So, I guess if he's some read-less rando rec player from Canada I might let him have his moment. However, if there is even the slightest indication that he does not have exactly AA then I will rip.

Flatting isn't the worst option at all. I'd rather not say when and why I flat hands like this but there is merit for anyone who disagrees with the flat.

I cannot see folding QQ to a 3bet in a 180 being remotely profitable without solid reads. I don't see how you can make money in 180s if you're doing that.

These are the sort of responses that made me play devil's advocate in the first place. You just post your opinion, tell everyone that disagrees that they're a pack of dolts, and stifle any productive discussion. If you're just here to say what is 100% definitive and not willing to entertain other opinions, not really sure what this forum does for you other than make you feel big. PLO UFO happens to be one of the most experienced guys in these games and has made plenty... Maybe he has something to offer??

At what point did I say anything negative about anyone who disagrees?

I'm voicing my opinion just like everyone else, I'm perfectly open to changing my opinion - if somebody provides some decent reasoning.

I know he's good, which is why I phrased my answer "I don't see how you're making money doing that" as opposed to "you're not making money doing that".

hee eh. Can i ask you how u would play AQ and JJ in this spot.
I know this is not the place for it because we discuss the qq hand here.
But im just curious..maybe u wanne share

Ok this thread is wasted brain power ill sum this up. If I or a reg like me opens from from ep without history of him spewing early we flat. Anyone else we raise get it in and make lots and lots of money $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ yaaaaeeeeeee

Didn't read all 105 posts, but yeah, I don't 3bet solid regs UTG opens at 10/20 from UTG+1. Getting it in with QQ is fine against a random, though I might flat in these positions.

lol 2013 and most regs still don't understand these concepts.. kinda tragic.

country reads are pretty accurate. or at least specifically the ones pghfan posted are..
3b or flat are both fine, both are way > folding (obviously)
some regs have really really nitty utg ranges, and pretty rarely are they stacking off worse than JJ (or even JJ) if they are good and think you are decent when you 3-bet their utg open

You would be folding to a utg 4b actually. I outlined when and why you could ever (rarely) consider folding QQ, perhaps that was too much opinion to include. Personally, I never see the 4b, just watch them snap call and it all goes into the middle. Perhaps you didn't understand my post.



I don't see how you can make money in 180s if you're doing that.
I don't see how you can make money in 180s if you're doing that.
I don't see how you can make money in 180s if you're doing that.
I don't see how you can make money in 180s if you're doing that.
I don't see how you can make money in 180s if you're doing that.

I can see ppl could fold all hands before 50/100 level and still be profitable in these, so much overstatements in this thread.

No need to unreg pre even if one never voluntarily sees flop in these tournaments(obv. leaky strategy but might make small positive ROI).

Flat makes at least 100 chips avg. when we see flop and there is still chance some donk squeezes light(it is a lot compared to getting it in vs. strong range). It is more likely for some donks to gii with random garbage after our flat(flat doesn't lose all the donk value in had either).

Reraise is awesome vs. donks because someone flats it with small pair or A7 and everyday I play see some deepstack bust with 67s or something similar preflop.

Shove is awesome, because someone has only call button in their client and then it gets max. value.

Lol, you come off like pretty huge d!ck itt. Just open your mind and realise this game is not solved.

Not really based on an anecdote, the 'analytics' of the situation are very simple: QQ destroys the range that a random player is 3 betting/4 betting/5 betting; against most regs this is not nearly so much the case. Therefore playing the hand straight-forward (get the money in) against a random is the most +EV play; not playing it this way against most regs (depending on your reads of their ranges) is the most +EV play. So, analytically speaking, folding QQ to a randoms 3 bet/4 bet/5 bet WITHOUT a read on their range is burning money. And if you are assigning nutty ranges to randoms (or thinking 'they might have a tight range here!' or 'but they could be a reg!' - as you have stated in this thread) then your own analytical analysis is pretty poor and you need to re-examine this. I do agree with your concept of factoring the players country into any decision but I wouldn't place anywhere near 100% of my decision on this, I'd factor in the fact that this is a random player much more heavily than their country of origin.

With regards to the 4th best hand (JJ) then 3 bet/get it in with a random is fine, some regs play it this way. However, flatting is considerably better as an option here (compared to QQ) because ~57% of flops with JJ are going to contain an over-card as opposed to ~41% with QQ - remember a lot of randoms are flatting 3 bets with a wide range a lot of which is broadway cards. This makes JJ a much better hand for playing more 'small ball' as it does not flop as well as QQ does - therefore is a better candidate for pot control rather than 3 betting pre.

If you think flatting JJ is best, then your whole rant about OMG WHY WOULD YOU FLAT THE THIRD BEST HAND IN POKER??? sounds pretty dumb.

Second, it's pretty apparent that you are making a crucial mistake in logic. In fact, a lot of people are making the same mistake in this thread. Simply because it's +EV to stack off preflop to an UTG+1 open, that does NOT mean that that is necessarily the way to make the most money in the hand. Your logic seems to be:

1) It's +EV to get it in
2) I want to win the most money possible
3) To achieve (2), we need to put as many chips into the pot as possible as quickly as possible

(3) Does not follow from (1) and (2). If you are decent postflop, there should be some hands that are marginally +EV to stack off pre, but you gain more chips long-term by flatting pre.

And finally:

I never suggested folding. So no idea why you brought this up.

Sure I was trying to make a point about how silly some of the logic being presented in the thread about 'we only have QQ' and basically giving a random villain a ridiculously nutty range was.

I presented pretty clearly above why flatting JJ is not anywhere near as bad as flatting QQ here. I could easily reverse the question to you and ask if you are flatting KK or AA in this spot? Because my logic presented above is very clear on why QQ-AA are better 3 bets than JJ is (a simple analysis of potential flop textures).

No I have made it pretty clear several times that flatting is +EV but I believe not as +EV as 3 betting - that is I do not see how you gain more chips long term by flatting pre in this spot.

The logic for this is pretty simple:
(1) We have a top hand that flops very well in a 3 bet pot (we don't have to pot control often)
(2) We are deep enough stacked (75 BB) that we want to start building a pot to gain the maximum possible value (something flatting doesn't do)
(3) We are miles ahead of the range of a random and we want to get the random to make large pre-flop mistakes (again, something flatting doesn't do)

All these things together make 3 betting considerably more +EV than flatting in the long-term.

Also, it doesn't matter how 'skilled' you are post-flop, since you are missing the following:
(1) You are losing the value in getting villains to make horrible pre-flop mistakes (flatting too wide, 4 betting too wide, 5 betting too wide). Mistakes that QQ has considerably equity against.
(2) Even the very top hands in poker (QQ+) lose their value (equity) considerably in multi-way pots. Flatting encourages multi-way pots.
(3) In this hand we get the chance to isolate a random player in position. Flatting increases the odds that we will have to play our hand OOP to some villains. Position = more EV in poker. Flatting = higher chance we lose position.

I could go on with other minor factors like a lot of value for players comes from multi-tabling 180s and playing QQ in a multi-way pot leads to decreased focus on other tables so lost EV there, flatting loses value when villain misses his hand on the flop (which is the ultimate conclusion of most hands) etc etc.

But most players consider 3 betting here a very easy decision and more profitable to flatting, hence why I was dismayed at some of the responses in this thread as the rational and logic for flatting was way off.

pretty sure pgh made it fairly clear that against a random you can do whatever but vs. regs or people most likely to be regs flatting has a lot of merit.

most of the benefits of 3-betting qq you mentioned barely apply, especially because (and in order)

1) irrelevant as a "good flop" for you is 3 undercards in terms of absolute hand str. but in terms of relative hand str to a decent reg (further explained below) it doesn't really matter as only a bad reg will pay you off for heaps with worse than QQ unless you are really spazzy in this spot (which 99%+ of regs aren't - 3b pre light then triple off at t20 lol). this is also a problem many regs have, they 3b aa or w/e and just see a good flop for their hand and don't think about relative hand str.
2-3) irrelevant vs. a decent reg, you aren't getting value.

The next group of things you said:

1) half+decent regs aren't flatting many worse hands than QQ unless you make it absurdly small, especially if you have no perceived bluff range (as most, 99% of 180 regs don't at t20 btn vs utg).
nor do they 4bet "too wide"

2) this is not true, at least not directly, i don't advocate flatting to encourage other flatters but letting a few terrible standard 180 fish flat behind is actually a good thing sometimes, the more bad they are the better. they will call like JTo and call off on txx, or even worse (i'm sure you've seen the countless ridiculous call offs and so on)
even in cash games, deep stack 100bb+ very good regs often will just flat AA KK and other strong hands because a huge whale is in the sb or bb. (in addition to some other benefits like strengthening cold calling range, inducing action from a heavy sqzer etc)

also even if/when the reg is bad enough to pile in chips with TT or JJ on say 9622 that is still a really small % of their utg range. edit: if they are bad enough to pile tt/jj or worse on such boards in these positions prob just 3b them.

OMGClay - Pgh was actually talking about flatting a random's UTG open with QQ not a regs.

Flatting a regs open is a completely different discussion and, if you read my posts, something I think is fine - I'd probably even call it 'standard'. This is completely different to flatting a random - which I think is burning money because of how much wider a random players ranges are and how many more mistakes they are likely to make both pre and post flop.

In this context, the villain could be a reg, as the OP said his HUD hasn't loaded and he can't identify regs yet. So villain is truly a "random", meaning he could be good or bad. I stand by my country reads to deal with this uncertainty.

Most of OMGClay's points stand about all the merits of flatting. You tried to point out some reasons why 3-betting is best, but there is also some merit in flatting to induce squeezes and flats from ****ty hands. And BTW, if we flat and a spewy button shoves, then we might cause the original raiser to get it in with a wider range, should he happen to be a reg who recognizes us.

I'm willing and able to see both sides of the argument in this preflop decision. As someone has stated before ITT, if you think you have to play this hand one way, then most of this stuff is probably just going over your head.

I think a big reason for the disconnect in this thread is that so many MTT SNG regs are mathematical pushbots who only feel comfortable playing hands a certain way when they can get corroboration from a program or mathematical formula. They can assign a rough range to a random UTG+1's stack off range, and when their hand beats that range, they'd rather take the simplest line possible.

For those kinds of players, they will only be convinced that flatting is the superior option if they are shown numbers to "prove" it. The problem is, there are so many variables in play, the number of assumptions we would have to make would make the "math" moot.

EDIT: I'm OI.

Meh I see your point and sure there are spots where regs play too robotical and abc. I dont think this is one of them though. I think this is a simple 3 bet for value vs a random and either flat/3 bet a reg (leaning towards the first). Hence why I was surprised at the comments in the thread as I dont think this is a complicated spot where regs can consider different options because the most +EV play is very obvious.

The only part of this hand that I find interesting is how we respond to the 4 bet because there is usually a huge difference between a randoms small 4 bet range and their 4 bet shoving range...

if i have AA i just shove

its got to be a fold. why take a risk that high in the early stages of a tourney with no info on the player? got to be facing either a race or a small edge, surely just wait for a better spot.

I like flatting and 3betting with QQ. I never fold it.Might lean towards 3 betting more reading this. It's like AA,KK, i 3 bet. JJ i flat. AK i flat with AK hate 3 betting and not knowing what i'm doing with it when stuff gets funky. And flatting it get to stack all the Ax people love so much and there KJ and such.And makes it more obvious i might have AK in my range When i 3 bet it.
Did used to get JJ and AK in pre but just not ahead enough.Too much flipping.
Kind of do what feels right but going through Wizz seeing all the value i'm missing by folding 27o at higher blinds ATM.
Gonna go through my DB see what i do with UTG opens form randoms as multi tabling do miss lots of stuff.
And thinking of it i do see loads of Ax,broadways,suited connectors,pairs,random trash from alot of randoms. But not all of them play that loose.So hard to know how much weight to put on the trash first hand with someone.
It definitely needs accounting for later when push / folding.And suppose i account for it somewhat early.
Just tend to play early quite tight and focus more thought on middle and end.

Did do a little experiment i 3bet a REGs UTG raise early with junk.Called his c-bet and when he checked the J turn i bet to steal the pot.Just to see if it would work.Plan was to steal the pot if i thought he missed it.
And i could played a flopped set that way so his fold can be good or an overpair.
Anyway going to Wizz alot more because i use game flow mostly but missing out by not knowing the math behind things i do.

So in summery just don't fold the QQ and you should be fine.

Trivial 3-bet/ get it in. Flatting preflop is terrible here.