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Push or fold? 4.50$ 180 man Push or fold? 4.50$ 180 man

12-24-2013 , 11:33 AM
FT - 9 players left

In this spot its fold for sure, but I make bad play... My push range in this spot should be 10+ AK.





    Poker Stars, $4.10 Buy-in (500/1,000 blinds, 100 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 9 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #21875241

    CO: 29,681 (29.7 bb)
    BTN: 58,514 (58.5 bb)
    SB: 33,687 (33.7 bb)
    Hero (BB): 19,446 (19.4 bb)
    UTG+1: 59,437 (59.4 bb)
    UTG+2: 14,353 (14.4 bb)
    MP1: 9,779 (9.8 bb)
    MP2: 14,663 (14.7 bb)
    MP3: 30,440 (30.4 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is BB with A Q
    3 folds, MP2 raises to 4,400, 4 folds, Hero raises to 19,346 and is all-in, MP2 calls 10,163 and is all-in

    Flop: (30,526) 9 2 7 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
    Turn: (30,526) 2 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
    River: (30,526) 4 (2 players, 2 are all-in)

    Spoiler:
    Results: 30,526 pot
    Final Board: 9 2 7 2 4
    Hero showed A Q and lost (-14,663 net)
    MP2 showed J J and won 30,526 (15,863 net)



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    12-24-2013 , 11:53 AM
    From middle position, with a bet that leaves him practically no fold equity, you can't imagine him doing this without a premium hand. If you think the other players have an edge over you, you could decide to gamble in this spot. The fact that he raises instead of open shoving would probably scare me into thinking he has a monster, especially with that sizing.

    I wouldn't insta fold though, some reads would be nice :P
    12-24-2013 , 12:20 PM
    I didn`t had any read on w, we play about 5 min FT and had no stats on him, in this particular case I got flip but in general this is not good play, w 10 + AK I could play this way. Is calling a option here ?
    12-24-2013 , 12:24 PM
    I don't think calling is a great decision here. Although this is a spot were experience might have a great importance. Usually a raise like that from a non regular player means either a pair like 8's 9's T's or AK because they don't want to loose the hand post flop and they don't wanna open shove 15 blinds from MP2 (in this case). If you don't have any reads at all this would be my read from the situation. In that case I think I would fold AQo because its a non-turbo mtt, the levels are 15 min and we have a lot of edge.
    Just fold and find a better spot, no need to coin flip IMO.
    12-24-2013 , 01:42 PM
    Realised my mistake 0.1 seconds after made it, I post here to hear your opinions and different thought process.

    What if villain was loose, in that case its right to go ALL IN !?
    12-24-2013 , 01:50 PM
    If he's loose then yes, this would be a push. However, 4x open still is weird. Mostly when randoms 4x they have premiums.
    12-24-2013 , 03:31 PM
    How about our stack size, with 19BB this is fold, but if we have less chips, like 8-14 BB, can this affect our decision in this spot even if villian range look strong !?
    12-24-2013 , 07:40 PM
    Id be close to shipping this
    12-25-2013 , 04:22 AM
    You kidding right.
    An MP2 is still LP,he is opening 4x essentially telling you he dosnt have JJ+AK(mostly) ,14BB effective and u are closing the action.Unless he is the biggest nit on the planet AQ is easy reshove i`d go down to 88+,AJs readless.
    Also its 9 handed so u have some ICM tax but not that much plus u cover villain so easy shove IMO.
    12-25-2013 , 04:46 AM
    This is a close spot, depending on how the opponent is playing and what your read is against him.

    If your reading his open for 30% ~ of his stack strong, i'm folding (AQs AKo/TT+ always all-in vs 1 opp), otherwise if you view him as loose and or weak i'm all-in.

    Last edited by havenrl; 12-25-2013 at 04:47 AM. Reason: for "all-in" not calling
    12-25-2013 , 10:35 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by havenrl
    This is a close spot, depending on how the opponent is playing and what your read is against him.

    If your reading his open for 30% ~ of his stack strong, i'm folding (AQs AKo/TT+ always all-in vs 1 opp), otherwise if you view him as loose and or weak i'm all-in.
    You have right, I agree with you.
    12-25-2013 , 10:36 AM
    How about this spot ?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AAoffpls
      Poker Stars, $4.10 Buy-in (500/1,000 blinds, 100 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 5 Players
      Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #21451971

      BB: 68,923 (68.9 bb)
      MP: 41,388 (41.4 bb)
      Hero (CO): 46,822 (46.8 bb)
      BTN: 50,382 (50.4 bb)
      SB: 62,485 (62.5 bb)

      Preflop: Hero is CO with K A
      MP folds, Hero raises to 2,000, BTN calls 2,000, SB raises to 6,000, BB folds, Hero raises to 46,722 and is all-in, BTN folds, SB calls 40,722

      Flop: (96,944) J 6 J (2 players, 1 is all-in)
      Turn: (96,944) 5 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
      River: (96,944) 3 (2 players, 1 is all-in)

      Spoiler:
      Results: 96,944 pot
      Final Board: J 6 J 5 3
      Hero showed K A and lost (-46,822 net)
      SB showed K K and won 96,944 (50,122 net)



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      12-25-2013 , 11:21 AM
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by AAoffpls
      How about this spot ?


      im all in


      Merry Christmas
      12-25-2013 , 11:26 AM
      Merry Christmas! May u always run good, hit the river, draw the royal flush and have a full house of people who love you!
      12-26-2013 , 11:48 AM
      Nice way to **** off your stack! In my belief it's spew, but thats because i think i have a big edge with a bigger stack at final tables. Shoving wont ever be -ev i guess. Merry xmas!
      12-26-2013 , 12:25 PM
      villain was loose, he 3 bet alot so I jam ALL IN AKs, ugly spot for sure.
      12-27-2013 , 09:47 AM
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by AAoffpls
      How about our stack size, with 19BB this is fold, but if we have less chips, like 8-14 BB, can this affect our decision in this spot even if villian range look strong !?
      I wouldn't fold AQ if u only had 8-13 BB's.

      AKs shove seems fine, especially with a loose opponent.
      12-27-2013 , 11:29 AM
      In this spot, i'm split between flatting and 4betting (if i do this, i'm snapping 5bet shove).
      12-27-2013 , 05:47 PM
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by chav
      You kidding right.
      An MP2 is still LP,he is opening 4x essentially telling you he dosnt have JJ+AK(mostly) ,14BB effective and u are closing the action.Unless he is the biggest nit on the planet AQ is easy reshove i`d go down to 88+,AJs readless.
      Also its 9 handed so u have some ICM tax but not that much plus u cover villain so easy shove IMO.
      First, MP2 is not LP. Then, that type of read depends on the vilain. I saw people raising QQ 4x or even KK, so I don't agree with your opinion because we got no reads on the villain. We are in the early hands in the final table probably (9 players left) so people are usually niting here.
      About your last argument: when a player raise 4x he is never folding, so ICM wise it's like a shoving situation, and you would not call a jam from MP2 with AQo on a FT of a 4.5$ non-turbo. That's my opinion. It's not a clear/ez shove like you say.
      12-27-2013 , 05:49 PM
      Quote:
      Originally Posted by AAoffpls
      How about this spot ?
      Don't like this, seems like a spew.
      12-27-2013 , 06:46 PM
      SB Stats: 22/12/4,3/71
      BB Stats:28/16/5,6/74



        Poker Stars, $4.10 Buy-in (1,500/3,000 blinds, 300 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 4 Players
        Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #21923631

        BB: 52,639 (17.5 bb)
        Hero (CO): 53,218 (17.7 bb)
        BTN: 98,104 (32.7 bb)
        SB: 66,039 (22 bb)

        Preflop: Hero is CO with J K
        Hero raises to 6,000, BTN folds, SB calls 4,500, BB calls 3,000

        Flop: (19,200) Q J Q (3 players)
        SB checks, BB bets 6,000, Hero raises to 13,164, SB raises to 20,328, 2 folds

        Spoiler:
        Results: 51,528 pot
        Final Board: Q J Q
        BB mucked and lost (-12,300 net)
        Hero mucked J K and lost (-19,464 net)
        SB mucked and won 51,528 (32,064 net)



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        12-27-2013 , 09:43 PM
        Now it's an ez fold i guess. Sb easly have a Q.
        I'm not sure if I raise that flop vs 2 players. The 6000 bet its a lol size obv but why are we raising? So he shove his weaker J or he fdraw/str8 draw?
        If the BB shoves instead of the SB we are in a bad shape too, in the best way he has a weaker J or a f draw that he played terrible. We should play our top pair with caution, we got a nice blocker for the turn and we kept their bluffs or semi-bluffs. I don't think that BB is donk betting a Q here so we were in a nice shape for the turn card (if the SB folded).
        And the stacks are pretty short so there is a good chance we could shove on the turn with the best hand (if the turn is a blank) and get the BB to call with his weaker J or draw.
        12-28-2013 , 10:43 AM
        they play so guffy every hand, BB was openin 5x-6xBB every hand and donk bets alot, over bets pots w any hand, most hand he had "air". So in this spot I was ahead of his range for sure, but somehow I had a feeling that SB dont have that Q, dont see a hand in that spot he could have 10Q, 9Q, 8Q ? He would 3 bet pre KQ I saw him doing that before, and if he had hand like 10 Q why would he push me from that hand, he left me fold eq. he 4 bets 7k more and I know he is not on that level to induce a 5 bet or something, this was a goffy play by bad player and I should push my hand no matter what, he could had J9, J10 and he would play the same way this hand.
        12-28-2013 , 12:11 PM
        Fold in last spot is good. I suggest flat calling the flop instead of 3-betting. If BB has air a lot of the time, give him an oppertunity to hang himself Also you don't know what the SB has yet.

        SB played weird, but you're probably beat :P
        12-28-2013 , 01:09 PM
        Its heavy board, I dont want to give him free draw card, his range is wide and he coulde have some kind of draw hand and if he hits something I will hang myself. At end I decided to fold, question is how many times this play would be a good play, I fold and left behind 10 BB, its hard for me later to get a real hand and I will go bust soon, that happens I jam 44 SB and BB call AK, flop XXX, turn X, river K and I finished 4place. And I ask myself what play was better, KJ or 44 spot, "what if" I play different thoose hands, maybe I would finish 2 or 1 place.

              
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