i want to switch from cash to 180 man sng , i just dont know where to start and what pushing strategy to use , can i use nash ranges until i have a better idea about calling and pushing ranges?

Analyse each situation on its own, I don't mean in complete isolation from the game as a whole, but using bespoke ranges without adjusting for all the numerous factors you should be adjusting for would be a mistake.

Remember playing GTO is only optimal vs a player(s) also playing GTO. I think of GTO as a benchmark from which to deviate from. The ability to gauge the amount to deviate is why there is still skill in push/ fold poker.

tbh I'm surprised you state should I use nash"? coming from cash I'm surprised you know nash ranges from many positions at all the various eff stacks? Do you have an ICM calc like HRC Or ICMizer if not this would be invaluable to you.

I use HRC and I'm running a beta with 27 place payout for the 180's not sure if this is in the alpha programme yet.

Calling nash when from our observations its very likely someone is not pushing that wide would be a leak.

Only shoving as wide as nash when players are folding to often would also be a leak.

maybe this helps https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpc...lFZQ5sA/videos

Why in Gods name would ever want this? What stakes are u playing? whats ur winrate?

hmmm i don't mind doing this, i guess the amount of time we pick the dead money regarding the few bb we have compared to the amount of times we are called its +ev to shove a lot of hands...

but yeh... in theory u are rite, u need more than 1 person to play the equilibrium otherwise there is not such thing as equilibrium...

He has a point here. You may want to consider your reasoning for making the switch.

A big elephant in the room is Variance. before switching use an roi simulator to simulate the ridiculous Variance faced in 180 man MTSNG's.

I remember when I had a 44% roi and thought that was maintainable. pmsl

Theres a really good mtt and mttsng variance calculator on pokerdope dot com but i guess u must have a sample in order to calculate your variance!

What I did with the one I played with is I put in some realistic roi's and changed the sample sizes.

So he can insert roi's of 5 10 15 20 and samples in multiple of a 1k and see what we all face.

I suppose expected roi greater then 20% will be possible in low Buy-Ins 180's and having a higher Roi will make him much more resilient to Variance. But OP is new to format so for game choice and bankroll considerations I think a prudent assessment of expectation is better.

But yeah op will need at least 5k sample to give a good idea of expected roi from his actual roi. but I think for players new to format looking at the variance they will face will be invaluable and most likely off putting.

I know the 180's are cool and have a sweet top prize... but as u said the variance is ridiculous.... i ve been playing sngs and mtts for a while and i would not just drastically change to 180's....

I suggest to start with smaller formats like 45's even if the icm is different... he has to get used to the nash chart and a bad adjustment in one of those 180's cost a lot - of time - .... tho if he comes from cash i guess he has some post flop skills which many pple don't have at those 180's! u can milk some out of this

Well the super top heavy payout distribution is a two edge sword. Yep super high variance but also ICM considerations in many spots and we can profit when our opponents make ICM errors even when we are not in hand.

Recs tighten up to much on bubble to cash, when a min cash is worth ****

I agree op will most likely have post flop edge over field but I believe this would be put to better use in slower deeper structures.

Yes i have decent postflop skills against fish and regs , i know what they are doing but my preflop skills with a shortstack are not great , i know you have to call tight in the bubble and push depends on calling ranges but i dont really know what the players are doing , if i recall correctly there was a lot of fish who called Ax type hands and pushing tighter was good , should i buy sngwizard? will the quiz mode help me get aboost in my pushfolding game?

As for variance , i know i can lose a ton , i had 50bi downswings on those in the past and i know its possible to have more , its still easier to accept variance on those compared to a cash game , i want to switch because i hate grinding cash games even though i win.

icmizer sng trainer is much better! and for studying and hh reviews id highly recommend hrc.. but since icmizer and hrc (which is better but without the sng trainer ) have the same function u gotta decide which one u gonna pay for....

callings and shoving ranges all depend on situations, i don't like saying "if villain calls tighter I'm shoving tighter" cuz there are lot of factors involved, table dynamics, how many players left, stack sizes and so on in overall i like shoving wider than nash since u find lot of nitties that only call off with AA ... there are gonna be many spots were u are obliged to fold a good hand cuz u know BB or SB are gonna call ATC and we don't wanna put that variance or risk chips in vain... Some pple tend to tight up unnecessarily near the bubble and in the last spots of the prizes for a min cash, i don't give a single f a k about, i d like to go for the hu.

I suggest u to get a sub on RIO if u don't have one yet and check the ICM videos for MTT players, Apotheosis has his own point of view about a sit where risking and calling ATC is better than calling tighter and let the big stack bully the whole table... Play lot of attention on villains when u get closer to the short stacks and label them is the best way to know who can be bullied and who doesn't

remember that gto is playing unexploitable and for that u have to adjust adjust and adjust again!

This makes me think switching may actually be better for you (didn't think I would be saying that). I have tried cash but it bores the hell out of me. Having to adjust to all the different effective stack sizes icm considerations and the adjustments players makes for these factors make MTSNG or MTT's a hell of a lot more fun to play then cash imo.

I play all kinds of things chasing missions and offers - just seen 10 flops of PLO cash this morning for example.

To be honest I don't think cash poker is a good game as a game itself. In NL25 we're sitting round with a total of more than 100 euros on the table fighting over 35 or 40 cents in blinds - wtf is that?

If you compare that to a 25 euro STT when you get to HU and you're only 25 BB deep - the STT is way more exhilarating.

LOOOOL for the sake of this forum and 2+2 i hope cash players dont sneak around this mttsng session, otherwise this comment will start a war !!

To tell the truth... I play this cuz is wayyyyuyy softer, i used to play cash and indeed improved but found myself studuing a lot, mtts on the other hand are super beatable and full of fishes who has no idea of what they do other than push/fold

Still, found way more interesting mtt stt mttsng in general!

They have steady win rates, boredom and bathroom breaks when ever they want.

We have ridiculous variance and bladders trained for 55 mins past each hour.

We have fun! They have dependable income!

Well, the excitement of playing the game and the profitability are connected. Shorter stack poker, which usually means tournament poker, is more exciting and therefore it offers losing players more value for the money they lose so that's where they stick around whereas cash just eats them up.

It's also more attractive for them to be an "underdog" in a pseudo-sporting contest like a poker tournament than a "fish" in a cash game.

I've also seen cash tables with a 10BB buy-in and 1% rake, so they seem to have the advantages of both, though they aren't really popular, so maybe the "contest" aspect is more important than people usually think.

+1 to bathroom breaks. This is a major disadvantage of STTs - they don't have breaks. If you "stop registering" half an hour before you want to have a break (maybe coordinating with a tournament break) you play fewer tables than normal for that period - on average half. Then there is time required to get up and running again so I'm trying to minimize this.

+ 1billion

61% of the prize pool is concentraded on the top 3 this is just too damn top heavy this increases variance imo

Unless he plays MSS (30bb-50bb poker) i dont see how his 100bb postflop skills can help him on a <25bb poker dynamic, yes of course there would be postflop situation where he can exploit 180s opponents but in general we´re talking about a preflop game for the most part.

If you just dont enjoy playing cash anymore and would like to change air then yeah by all means try something dif and find the format you actually enjoy playing after that the off the table work will be easy and u will adapt properly in no time.

Im not familiar with the format... But its stupidly possible how deep u can be at them, some post - flop skill will defo make your day if u are planning to abuse the table not only with a push/fold strat

Hey I'm new here and new to online poker so take what I have to say with a grain of salt but, I started out with the 180 man $2.50 games and I have found that the post flop skill means practically nothing in those games. The reason being is that practically everyone just plays their hand straight up and everyone folds ridiculously tight. Therefore, trying to outplay people postflop early doesn't make sense because they are giving away their money for free later by just folding way too much. Just my opinion but it has worked for me so far.

^That may be true but its not an either-or situation. You can gain chips both early and late.

Pre-flop guru u think u are flipping all day long lol.... Wait for the variance hits u XD

way to make profit 180man is by mass multi tabling and have to be more than a decent player to beat them because the game is reg infested.
I mix 180man and mtt and the 180mans are hurting my roll. I consider myself a bad reg, but volume is key in those games.

Ya well you didn't quite understand my post then. A lot of people are folding way too tight pre so I'm winning tons without showdown lol. I thought people on here were good at poker?