Prob didnt read what everyone said there, my bad i guess

It's true but we can still make analysis about the flop And we also will have to make decisions anyways so we should know how we will deal with it otherwise how can we say flatting is profitable?

I think the idea was its too strong to just shove?


Something not mentioned about flatting is that the bb is likely to over call, and then we are 3 way. Its really hard for bb to 3bet shove light in this spot so we prob never induce a squeeze.

About the flop. If we choose to flat, and see a flop, 3 random cards come, and we are in the same exact position as preflop. Sometimes we hit an A or a K or fd with over, and sometimes we hit air, but if you average them together you get close to the same equity as preflop (same essential ranges vs a random flip to see a flop right?) and we really don't save ourselves a difficult decision.

We can't really x/shove overs on the flops, so its really tough to do any kind of bluffing, and floating gives us the same issue, we see a turn in the dark with air and a lot of icm pressure oop.

So I think we can easily talk about postlop and shouldn't get overwhelmed by the possibilities because a lot of them we can put into patterns.

ha I do it all the time

Give OR aggro a raising range of 25% in late pos(which is tighter because I assume he's not raising atc with the commited btn.
See how AQs does vs that 4-handed.. Then tell me why getting it in is bad...

Ha I just didn't want to write a huge post about post flop. I've considered the situation in my head; I think that calling is clearly profitable, and I find it hard to believe that it's less profitable than shoving. Feel free to expand post flop in this thread and I might have more thoughts, but I don't feel like making a big post about it myself. It's too much work and I'm lazy.

BTW nobody is saying that getting it in is bad vs his current range (I hope not anyways), just that we get BY FAR the fewest amount of hands in his range when we shove as opposed to every other line. When that's the case, we have to consider our equity vs his range given every line and find out which line shows the most profit.

Calling causes us to x/fold most flops. Its not so clear its even profitable, we are extremely pinned oop and stack sizes are just big enough that we can easily still make mistakes post (If stacks were short postflop is harder to make a mistake).

Also we choose to flat because of ICM pressure, we aren't doing it to trap, its not the right time to trap oop with a nano stack likely to bust. We do it to pot control and to check down a lot. We aren't expecting to bluff oop in this spot.


Yup hence the thread, to look at the equity and evaluate the best line

The thing about 3betting a small amount. If villain 4bets his whole range, its really not a profitable 3bet from what I could see. But if villain flats our 3bet often, then we play with initiative and with smaller stacks.

We can cbet 100% of flops, and gii on qxx axx and XdXdXx. We can often shove turns with top pair, or even x/shove after cbetting.

Surely this is a better than flatting pre? Starts to depend on villains flatting range vs a 3bet

Call. Be confident postflop. Villain will not get crazy when he misses and your call seems strong.

So check fold most flops?

No. Why you assume villain will bet every flop. Is just not going to happen in a protected pot with a crap hand in my belief.

People play superface up in those situations I think.

We aren't folding many flops.

Agree with suprguard about the fact he's probably just going to check back a lot of flops in an attempt to bust the shorty. Flatting has to be the lowest variance line here and we've under repped our hand thus keeping in hands that we crush. 3b/calling cannot be that good not because we don't do that well vs his 4b range but simply for ICM reasons, although i haven't crunched the numbers. Interesting spot.