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/180 calling range /180 calling range

09-12-2011 , 05:08 PM
sometimes shoving 20 bbs from the CO/BTN will be optimal

it usually happens vs aggressive opponents when our hand is too weak to r/c and too strong to r/f
09-12-2011 , 05:16 PM
some of the best regs will shove in such situations, it's the best/most optimal play (slightly off note but sometimes if it's not the best play it's barely behind raise/decide and therefore a reg will shove since the difference is so small and this way they dont have to make more decisions which can be bad if we are mass tabling).

also yes like i already agreed often raise/decide is optimal most +ev but with aj in that spot specifically he is not raise/folding. if it's final table and there are icm factors shoving is way preferable to anything else because he doesnt want to get all in with hands that wouldnt call a shove (i.e. he doesnt want to induce shoves from hands like 22 T9s etc) (unless he thinks you are super passive and are never restealing light at all, in which case I guess it's possible for him to just raise/sigh fold to you.. =/)
09-12-2011 , 05:34 PM
classic example where open shoving beats everything

109 turbo

Hero is dealt JT in the CO

blinds 200/400/50

hero 8000
solid reg 8000
crushing reg 8000
spew box 8000
09-12-2011 , 05:35 PM
Poker Stars No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t200.00/t400.00 ante 50 Blinds - 9 players - View hand 1441877
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: t6616.00 16.54 BBs - VPIP: 17, PFR: 10, 3B: 6, AF: 1.0, Hands: 167
SB: t5480.00 13.70 BBs - VPIP: 21, PFR: 4, 3B: 0, AF: Infinity, Hands: 28
BB: t7774.00 19.43 BBs - VPIP: 10, PFR: 4, 3B: 0, AF: Infinity, Hands: 89
UTG: t4705.00 11.76 BBs - VPIP: 20, PFR: 20, 3B: 0, AF: NaN, Hands: 15
UTG+1: t12947.00 32.37 BBs - VPIP: 46, PFR: 31, 3B: 20, AF: NaN, Hands: 13
UTG+2: t4575.00 11.44 BBs - VPIP: 14, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: Infinity, Hands: 22
MP1: t3298.00 8.24 BBs - VPIP: 22, PFR: 12, 3B: 5, AF: 5.0, Hands: 68
Hero (MP2): t8141.00 20.35 BBs - VPIP: 16, PFR: 13, 3B: 6, AF: 2.7, Hands: 160096
CO: t10504.00 26.26 BBs - VPIP: 13, PFR: 13, 3B: 5, AF: Infinity, Hands: 45

Pre Flop: (t600) Hero is MP2 with 6 6
4 folds, Hero raises to t8091, 1 fold, BTN calls t6616 all in, 2 folds

Flop: (t13832) A 3 Q (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: (t13832) 3 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: (t13832) 3 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Two guyes behind me r multitabling turbo mtts, 2nd I recognise. Shoving is much better then r/calling imo, what is the point to r/c versus hand like J10s.
09-12-2011 , 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawelgracz
Poker Stars No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t200.00/t400.00 ante 50 Blinds - 9 players - View hand 1441877
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: t6616.00 16.54 BBs - VPIP: 17, PFR: 10, 3B: 6, AF: 1.0, Hands: 167
SB: t5480.00 13.70 BBs - VPIP: 21, PFR: 4, 3B: 0, AF: Infinity, Hands: 28
BB: t7774.00 19.43 BBs - VPIP: 10, PFR: 4, 3B: 0, AF: Infinity, Hands: 89
UTG: t4705.00 11.76 BBs - VPIP: 20, PFR: 20, 3B: 0, AF: NaN, Hands: 15
UTG+1: t12947.00 32.37 BBs - VPIP: 46, PFR: 31, 3B: 20, AF: NaN, Hands: 13
UTG+2: t4575.00 11.44 BBs - VPIP: 14, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: Infinity, Hands: 22
MP1: t3298.00 8.24 BBs - VPIP: 22, PFR: 12, 3B: 5, AF: 5.0, Hands: 68
Hero (MP2): t8141.00 20.35 BBs - VPIP: 16, PFR: 13, 3B: 6, AF: 2.7, Hands: 160096
CO: t10504.00 26.26 BBs - VPIP: 13, PFR: 13, 3B: 5, AF: Infinity, Hands: 45

Pre Flop: (t600) Hero is MP2 with 6 6
4 folds, Hero raises to t8091, 1 fold, BTN calls t6616 all in, 2 folds

Flop: (t13832) A 3 Q (2 players - 1 is all in)

Turn: (t13832) 3 (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: (t13832) 3 (2 players - 1 is all in)

Two guyes behind me r multitabling turbo mtts, 2nd I recognise. Shoving is much better then r/calling imo, what is the point to r/c versus hand like J10s.
You're a nit and those guys have low 3bet percentages. What makes you think they are three betting all in with J10ss?
09-12-2011 , 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cneuy3
You're a nit and those guys have low 3bet percentages. What makes you think they are three betting all in with J10ss?
Not a nit, stats come from pre ante mostyly. Second one probobly got hem and recognise me, first can find me and see I am multi tabling turbos so, Iven a hand like KQs or QJs why would at least baton not reshove with that.
09-12-2011 , 06:01 PM
In a vacuum there are plenty examples you can give where shoving 20bb may be optimal in that single hand.

Most of you are going to say you have a two ranges. A shove range made up of alot of your medium strength hands and a raise/fold and raise/call range made up of your air/premium hands.

This is a fine way to play but in these 20BB examples we are often one of the chip leaders or near the top. These are MTT turbo SnGs and 20BBs is alot. I would much rather not have much of a 20BB shove range at all that a good reg can play optimally against and instead have a much wider raise/decide range.

He/they are risking alot if they choose to reshove(most will never three bet enough to make our initial min raise steal unprofitable) on us in these spots and sure, sometimes they will make us fold our moderately/unexploitable to shove hand but in the long run I think we will be able to steal from them much more and be harder and more unpredictable to play against.
09-12-2011 , 09:54 PM
Grunching, but vs a random I'm probably 99/AQ here.
09-22-2011 , 02:31 PM
88 & AQ.
And i agree that people open shoving 20bbs aren't good.
09-22-2011 , 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chilin_dude
88 & AQ.
And i agree that people open shoving 20bbs aren't good.
It's often not optimal in 180s but it's pretty lol to say this as a blanket statement. Not singling out chilin for this btw, it's already been mentioned a few times ITT
09-22-2011 , 06:21 PM
He has too many chips to call off our stack I would have a tight range, espically in your position.
09-22-2011 , 06:42 PM
I think people open shoving lots of bbs are just taking shortcuts on a play thats +EV but is nowhere near optimal.
09-22-2011 , 07:03 PM
In some spots it is optimal and if anyone wants to prop I will easily find 20 hands within a couple of days where top players did it.. I'm not saying it's optimal often, but sometimes good players (or even "great" players) do it because a) it literally is the best option sometimes or b) it's pretty darn close to raise/decide and due to multi-tabling etc shoving is the option they take. I don't think you can say people who do this are bad/not good full stop. To be clear I agree that with 20BB most of the time shoving is not optimal/the most profitable play.
09-22-2011 , 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OMGClayDol
In some spots it is optimal and if anyone wants to prop I will easily find 20 hands within a couple of days where top players did it.. I'm not saying it's optimal often, but sometimes good players (or even "great" players) do it because a) it literally is the best option sometimes or b) it's pretty darn close to raise/decide and due to multi-tabling etc shoving is the option they take. I don't think you can say people who do this are bad/not good full stop. To be clear I agree that with 20BB most of the time shoving is not optimal/the most profitable play.
Don't want to make a prop bet out of it but if you don't mind could you find me three and post them in another thread. Non SB Vs BB hands please.

Also, I dare you to find me one where the good reg open shoved something better than AJ or 99 20bbs effective.
09-22-2011 , 07:21 PM
For fun here is a hand I played recently. Final two tables of a 180 man. This is probably the bottom of my calling range and I almost folded it against this guy with reg like stats. It's probably a fold by ICM standards but i felt like his range was heavily weighted towards 22 through 1010 discluding JJ+, maybe some weaker Ax hands and some hands like A10 through AQ, maybe AK obvioulsy....who knows.....Bottom line is I felt like I could heavily discount JJ+ and went for the big stack so I called. He had 22. His shove is obviously more than 25bbs effective. I think it's ridiculous although my call might not be the greatest either.


    Poker Stars, $13.77 Buy-in (600/1,200 blinds, 125 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 7 Players
    Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #10662082

    MP3: 20,623 (17.2 bb)
    CO: 36,269 (30.2 bb)
    BTN: 20,719 (17.3 bb)
    Hero (SB): 30,170 (25.1 bb)
    BB: 17,548 (14.6 bb)
    MP1: 18,115 (15.1 bb)
    MP2: 11,807 (9.8 bb)

    Preflop: Hero is SB with 8 8
    3 folds, CO raises to 36,144 and is all-in, BTN folds, Hero calls 29,445 and is all-in, BB folds

    Flop: (62,165) 4 9 9 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
    Turn: (62,165) J (2 players, 2 are all-in)
    River: (62,165) 5 (2 players, 2 are all-in)

    Spoiler:
    Results: 62,165 pot
    Final Board: 4 9 9 J 5
    CO showed 2 2 and lost (-30,170 net)
    Hero showed 8 8 and won 62,165 (31,995 net)



    Get the Flash Player to use the Hold'em Manager Replayer.
    09-22-2011 , 07:23 PM
    In a rush now so can't read to find it but I'm pretty sure already given various examples throughout the thread, bvb, bubble/icm situations (yes they "different" situation but that's exactly why you can't give blanket statements) and various unexploitable shove spots where shoving is better since we can't call a shove and with good enough players behind they will reshove too often etc... Some choose to balance, some don't, whatever (I'm sure there are some spots where these good players jam AJ+ or 99+ either for balance or because of ICM, but it doesn't matter if not because I'm not saying it's balanced etc). But there's an example somewhere ITT where basically on CO hero has 20BB and if the BTN/SB/BB are all good regs many GOOD players will just jam JTs.

    MOST spots it's not the best play but again there are definitely spots where it is and again saying anyone who does is bad (or even not good) is wrong for sure.

    edit: re your post I'm not saying it's the best play etc or it's optimal, yes vs. 95%+ of regs you can discount really strong hands when they make huge shoves, doesn't mean what I said isn't true.
    this isn't the best thing to do but one example is you can balance by shoving unexploitable stuff, and raise/fold polarised.
    09-22-2011 , 07:34 PM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OMGClayDol
    MOST spots it's not the best play but again there are definitely spots where it is and again saying anyone who does is bad (or even not good) is wrong for sure.
    Yep. I never said "anyone who does it is bad" in this thread and I've probably even open shoved close to 20BB's myself in some situations(usually Blind Vs Blind) and maybe some situations where I put a high ICM tax on someone or did it because of the gameflo but overall don't think it should be a common play. Used sparingly here in there I agree you can probably find some spots where it's optimal.

    Like, lets say I've been abusing someones blinds and I suddenly wake up with 66 from the button. There is probably higher probably that I'll be played back light and raise/folding or raise calling ~20bbs with 66 on the button kind of sucks so here might be a good spot to shove....I agree.

    Overall though, I still stand by the fact that your range is pretty face up when doing it so it should be a move used sparingly.
    09-22-2011 , 08:00 PM
    Ya I didn't say you said it but others said it or the equivelant. The 88 is a fairly clear call, your reasoning makes it clearer too fwiw but we can both agree wouldnt go much lower. Gl
    09-22-2011 , 10:19 PM
    88 isn't a clear call at all without fully knowing villain's range imo. I mean no doubt it's +cev but....yeah, not going into all that in every damn thread. As for OP's hand, I like AK/TT, tossing 99 most of the time depending on more precise stats. I'm also in the shoving 20bigs is pretty damn lame camp. Course, if they made antes bigger, it would be the shiz! Antes half the SB imo. Off to stars improvement tred.

    Last edited by penfold; 09-22-2011 at 10:28 PM.
    09-22-2011 , 11:09 PM
    There are plenty of ICM spots where it's way more optimal to open shove because the person who shoves last forces the opponent to make a negative ev call. You might like being ignorant or have some special aversion to shoving more than 12bb but we play poker to make the best $ev decision.

    I don't even need actual hand histories. I could just make up a dozen hand histories on the spot. Also cnuey, your 88 call is beyond standard and probably snapping off 77 as well.

    Also it's super ironic how you guys are talking about good players not making these moves when the person who first widely popularized it is one of the best tournament players of all time..

    The mark of a bad regular imo is someone who open shoves when they should be raise/calling that exact hand for value.
    09-23-2011 , 12:42 AM
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jjyykk
    Also it's super ironic how you guys are talking about good players not making these moves when the person who first widely popularized it is one of the best tournament players of all time..

    The mark of a bad regular imo is someone who open shoves when they should be raise/calling that exact hand for value.
    DJK??? People were huge nits back then with calling overshoves and I think these kinds of overshoves are much better used in MTTs where average effective stacks hover around the 35BB to 40BB area for most of the tournament. Building and maintaining a 35+ BB stack in an MTT is much more valuable there.

    Average effective stacks in MTT turbo 180 mans generally hover around 10 to 12BBs late in the tournaments. You generally have the same stack maneuverability with a 20BB stack against the majority of your opponents as you do with a 35 to 40BB stack in one of these turbos.

    Lastly you mention a bad regular is someone that open shoves when they should be raise calling. In a perfect world you could shove all your crap or moderately strength hands giving you maximum fold equity with them and raise call with all your nutted hands. The problem is that the more hands you are overshoving the tighter you standard raising range becomes. Now you won't be able to raise/snap off 1010 for value in most situations because your open raising range just tightened up so much.

    You shouldn't be scared to get played back at. I raise/fold moderately strength hands all the time that I could otherwise overshove profitably from late position. I more than make up for it from the times I'm able to raise/call a wider value range and from the actual min raise steal itself. I also eliminate myself from having a very wide unbalanced 15 to 20BB shoving range.

          
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