PLAYED IN A 90MAN TURBO 0,50 ON POKERSTARS

Around 40 players left:

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $200(BB) Replayer
SB ($4,070)
BB ($2,785)
Hero ($1,070)
UTG+1 ($3,795)
UTG+2 ($2,030)
MP1 ($446)
CO ($1,280)
BTN ($2,219)

Dealt to Hero K 8

Hero raises to $1,070 (AI), UTG+1 calls $1,070, fold, MP1 calls $446 (AI), fold, fold, fold, fold

FLOP ($2,886) 2 4 3

TURN ($2,886) 2 4 3 3

RIVER ($2,886) 2 4 3 3 T

MP1 shows K 9
(Pre 25%, Flop 16.2%, Turn 11.9%)

Hero shows K 8
(Pre 22%, Flop 9.6%, Turn 7.1%)

UTG+1 shows J A
(Pre 53%, Flop 74.2%, Turn 81.0%)

UTG+1 wins $2,886


PLAYED IN A 90MAN TURBO 0,50 ON POKERSTARS

Limper stats: 50/ 0 /

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $200(BB) Replayer
SB ($1,480)
BB ($6,910)
UTG ($2,555)
UTG+1 ($1,974)
UTG+2 ($6,376)
Hero ($690)
BTN ($2,760)

Dealt to Hero T J

UTG calls $200, fold, fold, Hero raises to $690 (AI), fold, fold, fold, UTG calls $490

FLOP ($1,680) Q 2 T

TURN ($1,680) Q 2 T 2

RIVER ($1,680) Q 2 T 2 A

UTG shows K J
(Pre 73%, Flop 44.3%, Turn 25.0%)

Hero shows T J
(Pre 27%, Flop 55.7%, Turn 75.0%)

UTG wins $1,680

Looks good to me:-)

Trust wiz. If you put stats in correct it will be right. I wouldn't shove k8s utg. With 5 bb would rather wait to be in the bb and reshove over a steal. Same again with jto against a ep fish you have 0 fold equity and your hand doesn't do good against his range.

for K8's hand wizz gave me this range: 44+,AT+, A8's+, KT's+, QJ's, JT's.

Guess K8's would be bottom of my range here.
Im not trilled putting it in here.

Thx for the feedback

no, sorry this is a definite shove here

If he has put in everything correctly. Wiz will not be wrong. How can you argue with a program designed to tell you the correct decision lol. If your shoving here and wiz says fold your losing money.

Lol with 40 players left? 45 and 180 man grinders know that ICM is not NEARLY as big a deal in these games as 9s and 18s (games Wiz is next to God at) The only time I use Wiz is in ICM spots on the bubble or in the money, unless you use the chip ev method, which is not exactly correct either. It's definitely a mix, there are some spots in 180s that if you have Wiz in ICM mode and make all of the calling ranges as correct as possible, it will still tell you to be crazy tight. Sorry but sometimes in 45s and 180s Wiz is not correct.

Just a quick one, but how do we know to assign the correct ranges etc? what stats of the player would you choose during the game or overall stat's??

Well argued dude, but i still think your wrong lol. I dont know if you are familiar with the disaster to dreamcrusher thread, but Awice discussed a pretty similar hand on it the other day. This time on the button with 9bb and K8o and he stated how clear cut the fold was and how many regs in the forum suggested shove but they were wrong. In his and wiz's opinion lol.

'Actually it was really sick, because it was like, people didn't trust a computer.'

i get what your saying about icm in 180's and i think this example was slightly closer to payouts but still.

-personally i look at vpip, pfr- general stats to gauge player type eg rock, fish, etc, if they a reg and are shoving wide enough, what hands they have shown down before. how aggressive they are, how they have been playing with x amount of bb. Always remember hand samples as well, theres no point declaring a player a rock cause you saw him fold 5 hands.

Wiz isn't perfect. It's a tool that should help you with your game, but not a crutch to lean on.

It doesn't account for the equity lost when going through the blinds, so it's well known that in some spots (i.e. UTG) you need to shove wider than the program suggests.

An even better example of this would be if the blinds were going up next hand...Wiz does not account for that either.

I shove this hand.I don't like the logic of waiting to call with a better hand because although you may find yourself in a more +Cev situation it is way more -$EV to call off than it is to shove.So the Cev equity you gain from folding is not enough to make up for -$Ev considerations of calling hands in the BB.Also, assuming the you don't call off in the BB because you are faced with a more -Cev spot than the K8s spot than you will be left with 700 chips in the SB and no fold equity assuming you even get a chance to shove in the first place.

>40 players left, $EV is not worth anything yet.

in that stage I only look at cEV but it still was a clear fold...

I push 22+, any broadways and A8s+

way too tight. 109s suited is an easy ship here, you're saying you would fold that out? I'd be more happy with shipping 109s than a5s and that's also an easy ship here.

Just shut up and let 'good' players keep making mistakes. I'm not about to bang my head against a wall for some random poster who refuses to listen. Now if they bought coaching...

Post in another forum imo

Id push from let's say 67s+ T9o+.

I'm playing 0.50 Turbo ITM and I'm trying to contribute to discussions in hope ppl would help me even if I'm wrong.

- I play 0.50 Turbo atm I don't have the roll for coaching
- I'm not 'refusing' to listen, I'm giving and at the same time hoping to receive constructive feedback.
- I'm not here to feel myself better because I might be better than another
2p2'er

completely different hand.

Wouldnt say it was that different.... k8o on the button with 9bb compared to
k8s utg with 6 bb. and the point was more about ignoring a computer program.

both are folds, imo.

hand 1 is close, and really depends on what people behind think of UTG shoves. if they realize that we could be making a -cEV shove in order to stay ahead of the blinds, then we need to be a little tighter.

hand 2 is not close at all though. the fish is never folding after putting chips in the pot. better to be first in with a hand like this.

40 left vs ft spot. k8o btn 9bb+a is mass +cEV. discussion was about icm, $EV.

Ok once and for all the K8s is NOT a fold. Put it in Wiz, put the stacks in right, PUT IT ON CHIP EQUITY MODE, (because this is what matters with 40 people left in a 90 man) and with the shortie calling at over 50% (which he probably isn't) and the BB calling at 17% (again, which he probably isn't) it's a shove.