This is a std shove? In sit go wizard, its not. But it is a nash shove.
I dont have more than 40 hands of anyone. The BB is a fish, limping a lot, going to showdown with A6s (limp SB) and KK (limp UTG).

Poker Stars $2.28+$0.22 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t2500/t5000 Blinds + t500 - 6 players - View hand 2485895
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: t51680 M = 4.92
BB: t14878 M = 1.42
Hero (UTG): t37469 M = 3.57
MP: t57545 M = 5.48
CO: t83348 M = 7.94
BTN: t25080 M = 2.39

Pre Flop: (t10500) Hero is UTG with K Q
Hero raises to t36969 all in, 4 folds, BB calls t9378 all in

I'm with SNGW on this one (probably)

There's two players with a mini-stack at the table. BB is probably going all-in either way, BTN doesn't have much longer.

KQ isn't that good a hand, especially if ppl will call you light (and they will)
any A is a favorite over you, any pair is a favorite over you (that's a LOT of hands)

It's better to wait for a stronger hand or for one or both of the smaller stacks to go out so you finish two spots higher ITM.


I'm guessing it's pretty close though between shove/fold.

Nash is purely based on chip EV, SNGW uses $EV, which is more important in this situation.

I send to the ICM nash calculator, so it's not chipEV.

UTG 14.6%, 66+ A4s+ A9o+ KTs+ KJo+ QJs

http://www.holdemresources.net/h/web...78&s7=&s8=&s9=

it's a close spot
guess they both use slightly different calculations or something

nash is an equilibrium, which assumes everybody plays perfect, in cEV or $EV.

i would go a little tighter than nash here since villains have to call us absurdly tight, which they won't.
but on higher limits definetly easy push

why would you ever play tighter than what is required?
if nash says pushing a hand is +EV why would you ever not push it (assuming raising is not an option because your stack is too small)
if ppl call too light, you're getting even more EV from it (more variance too though)

as i said, nash is an equilibrium where everyone plays perfect.
if one person is not playing perfect then at least one other isn't as well.
in our case the player behind us is allowed to call 88+ AQs+ AQo+.
if he is now calling slightly looser (which he will, cant imagine him folding AJs and stuff on that limit) we are not playing perfect any more and the EV (which we both are loosing) will be distributed between the other players on the table.

this is now super theoretical, i just wanted to make my point and kind of exaggerated.
pushing/folding KQ here will never be super +EV/-EV

so yes, sometimes when people call looser we have to tighten up

wait what? how?


Nash calculates a range for you, then it calcs the range someone can call you with and make a +EV call with.
If ppl call you lighter, their call will be incorrect and thus -EV, meaning it's even more +EV for us if they call too light.

How did the other players at the table suddenly get into this?
And doesn't even matter, if a 3rd player gets odds to call, the pot also becomes larger, our chance to win goes down, but we win more so it basically stays the same.

sorry for highjacking your thread, but i need to write this:

jesus, you have no idea of ICM whatsoever right?

satellite, 4 player left, 3 get a ticket to the sunday million.
player 1: 3BB
player 2: 2BB
player 3: 25BB
player 4: 24BB

2 folds, player 3 shoves BvB into player 4.
in nash (assuming he is calling correctly) he is allowed to push any two cards, so he pushes 72o (since it it +EV)
player 4 calls with A8s, which is higly -EV.

so player 3 makes a -EV shove, player 4 makes a -EV call and yes, the EV both are loosing is now distributed between the other 2 players not involved in the hand

and to get to our hand:

here are the nash ranges for everyone calling correctly, KQo has a Eq.Diff of + 0.08
we are allowed to push: 55+ A4s+ A9o+ KTs+ KJo+ QTs



now i changed the ranges to more accurate ones -> people don't know how tight they have to call and suprise suprise, KQo turns out to be -0.01 (and the ranges are still quite tight for the two buck fiddy level.
we are allowed to push: 66+ A9s+ ATo+ KTs+ QJs






u happy now?

sorry for the huge pictures

So you just confirmed what I said in my first post with an explanation that has basically nothing to do with this situation? Good job sir.

Shoving 72o is definetly not +$EV if the guy will call you with half his range!
Good job using Nash for an ICM situation though.

Keep telling people they have no clue while confirming what they just said, insulting them at the same time and writing down some weird example that has nothing to do with the situation and is wrong ... (I'm done with this thread.)

first part is related to

KQo is a great hand vs lighter calling ranges. Most of the time you got at least 45%. I don't think people will call you very light in this situation btw. If they lose the hand, they will be crippled and of course you put ICM pressure on them, because of the shorter stacks. In my opinion this spot ain't close at all. ICM doesn't take into account you hitting the blinds soon and we play to win.

About Nash.
Nash can calculate either chip EV or $EV situations. $EV situation is exact the same as in SNG Wizard. SNG Wizard uses different ranges as a standard, so your shoving range changes due to this.

for me it's not even close, snap jamming. there would have to be some absurdly wide calling history with villains and the bigger stacks for me not to shove here.. fwiw and my exp in these 180s, people are calling farrr tighter than we think here. Peace

jam ainec

Very nice.

I'm not sure if other players are calling wider than they should.
It's only two bucks... but it is still the final table and it looks like fish will bust in this hand very often.

all bubblened is saying is that when two players go all in, in icm situations they do not gain all that much usually.. its the players not involved in the hand that typically gain the most $EV by simply doing nothing(since one can bust and the prizes go up for these players not involved in the hand).

I believe this is a close spot. I think im shoving here tho

snap jamming any time with our stack size

I would definitely shove here, with only 7,5 bb left.People in my experience fold a lot of hands on FT, and i expect the ones that have you covered to not call you lightly here.You really want to gather chips , or double up fast to set you up for a win, rather than playing passively, and pass up in spots, with such a low M.
I have been in this situation many times before(played about 18000 180 mans), and people will fold to your shove such a high percentage, that its worth shoving,in my opinion.You might very well get the BB(short as he is) to call with a hand you dominate as well.

I would jam 10bb in your spot, so 7,5bb is a no brainer for me. But is just my 2 cents, i'm nowhere near pro but above average at low stakes.