Hi there,

Grateful for anyone's help here on the right sort of ranges to play in this situation.

Obviously I'm pretty low in blinds, but would still have a bit of fold equity if I go through the blinds once more, maybe. Especially against the medium stacked players.

I'm thinking that as I'm UTG, there's a big chance of someone else having an Ace with a higher kicker and I'd rather have KQ or something. If I go through the blinds, then there is a chance that it'll get folded to me on the button or CO and I might stand a better chance of a steal and I might get dealt a better hand in the meantime.

Is going through the blinds just a really bad idea and I should be putting it in with worse hands than A2s? What sort of range should I have here?

If I had the same stack in the CO, how wide should I be shoving against non-regs?

Also one thing that always confuses me is how I should be thinking about the short stacks. Am I happy to shove in front of them because they will be more deperate and calling really wide. What about the medium and big stacks. I suppose it depends on the players, but in general they might think that I'm shoving quite wide and calling, or they might want to protect their stacks.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Too wide, I think. Probably A9s+.

if you were in the CO shoving with ATC would probably be +EV

in this spot i'd say A9s+, ATo+, KTs+, KJo+, 89s+ and any PP i can't imagine these people are calling calling correctly in a 2.50$

Ranges given are too tight IMO. I usually set my shoving ranges at 30%ish when I have 10bb after antes and my position is poor. Therefore, any suited ace should be a shove. I would shove the following range:

22+,A2s+,K5s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,98s,A7o+,K9o+,Q9o+,JT o

This is probably close to +cev shoves in this position depending on villain's calling ranges.

On how to view short and deep stacks: Shortstacks are supposed to (but not necessarily) call you wide enough. Deep stacks won't look you up as much as they should because their risk/reward ratio weighs in. Deepstacked villains will usually have very tight calling ranges.

You're probably right. I haven't played 2/180s in some time and don't know how wide/tight people are calling in them these days.

arts range is a tiny on the wide side, something like 22 a2s ato k6s broadways (can fold like jto or w/e if u want) k9o 98s is a bit safer. you can definitely go a little wider, or tighter.

Cool thanks everyone.

How do people arrive at their ranges? Do you analyse your bank of hand histories and, say, filter for all ~10BB shoves from EP and see what hands you're winning on and what hands you're losing? My sample of 250 games is nowhere big enough to get decent info from that I think.

Thanks again

22+,A2s+,A9o+,K8s+,KJo+,QJs,QTs,JTs.

K6s, K9o, Q8s A7o are probably too light

OK. Putting this situation into SNGWizard in cEV mode it suggests the following range:

28.5(22+, A8+, A2s+, KT+, K5s+, QT+, Q6s+, JT, J7s+...)

and it's showing my shove as having a cEV (DiffC) of 196. As this is small I probably want to be a bit tighter here. I'm a beginner really so just trying to learn ranges properly. Do people think that I can use SNG Wizard like this by seeing the ranges it is giving in a situation and then adjusting posibly a bit tighter if I wanted to play with slightly lower varaince?

Cheers again.

You can be tighter if you want. You can be a little lighter than Wiz because it all has to do with other people's calling ranges. Adjust them and see the results. You might not want to make marginal +cev shoves if you feel like you have an edge over the field etc. Personally I'm on the lighter side of things just so I make sure I don't make -cev folds. It all goes into your personal style. Just make sure you're not playing it too tight and it'll show a profit in the long run.

Very interesting discussion. In this spot it is so important how big edge we want to have. With 10bb I like it at 0.5bb which is 600c in this spot. It is still 20x my stack. WIth not so good position to shove wide in the next few hands (also not in big blind the very next hand) with really shortstack and bigstack on my left..I would put my edge at maybe 500 in this case. If this is itm (2 tables left) ICM considerations could come into play a little more too.

With all players at calling range between 6-9% and shorties 25% and 40%
I have 12.8% - 44+, ATo+, A9s+,KQ, KTs+,QTs+,JTs.

Anyway I dont know if this is good set up in SNG WIzard and I am interested why it is recommended to have edge as a default so close to 0.

I agree with arrt on passing up spots. Its usually a bigger leak to not be pushing enough than to be pushing too wide. If you never push too wide you're almost certainly not pushing enough.

Having an edge over the field is a legitimate reason to be tighter but it is often over applied. The effect is fairly small, especially in turbos which have fewer hands and with short stacks where most of your edge comes from having correct pushing ranges.

9bb isnt really a panic shove just yet, you can still get through the blinds and push ATC on the btn

I dont like the shove here just because the calling ranges are mainly going to have you crushed. On the other hand with so many short stacks we aren't likely to get a hand were it is folded to us especially as the blinds approach them. I still think its a fold and prey for a walk but if we knew blinds were up in a min I think you have to shove. We then drop down to 7 BB and the shorties get shorter. Not sure if my logic is correct but just my thoughts??????

you basically answered your own question here

which I am definitely shoving here. btw your KQ only increases your chances by 10% (40% and not 30%) if any other player calls with a better ace not including AK or AQ

exactly. btw in CO I push your A2s

depends on the situation and how the table is playing. I think that if you hesitate then it is better to fold and re-think later (and post in 2p2 obv). In UTG, UTG+1 at an unknown table I push 55+, AT+. If you have reads on the players then adjust with pushbot charts.

Depends, against looser guys who call wide I tighten up, against weak and scared/timid/rock/nit players I push any pair, any Ace, any King, and connectors JT+. On BTN, I include Q7+, 87s+ against nits. Remember that bigger stacks may call you wider, adjust with pushbot what to shove for +EV if you can assume their calling range is approximately.

I basically answered it above, but to add sth remember about your reads on the short stacks. On top of guys like 9/5 or 7/3 I tend to push almost ATC if I am on BTN and they are on blinds. Some of them will become rock tight and wait for a hand (like 99+, AQ+), using HUD will help you. If you see a short stack guy pushing a lot IP you can assume he knows what he is doing and is reggish and not fishy. Try to figure out what they can be pushing and try to adjust. The big stacks that fear for their chips are also to be abused relentlessly, you have to build your stack and every steal increases it by 20%, sometimes it is a risk you have to take to reach FT and a better payout than a min cash.

I know this may not answer everything but I hope that at least I helped a little. You guys have anything to add/correct?

only by 10% is very very incorrect thought process, 40% equity is a HUGE HUGE difference from 30% vs. calling ranges. HUGEEEEEEEEEE man

I didn't want it to sound that I don't appreciate these 10% (I really do)

With all players at calling range between 6-9% and shorties 25% and 40%
I have 12.8% - 44+, ATo+, A9s+,KQ, KTs+,QTs+,JTs.

Anyway I dont know if this is good set up in SNG WIzard and I am interested why it is recommended to have edge as a default so close to 0.[/QUOTE]


You are not as short as you think. if this is one orbit later then you are short.
(you are not DEEP by any means and needs chips but not short yet.)

Has the bubble gone? pretty important since if its 19 handed you get so many more folds than if its 18 handed. (Sorry if this has been stated i looked tho.)

i agree with the above range for 19 handed.

range others stated for 18 handed seems fine.

if strangly this is 10 handed (Ive seen it) then tight as hell again.

LOL clays comment about 10%, i would give a finger for 5% more equity if i could. ten is MASSIVE. 30% to 40% is a 33.3% increase don't you know!

Hey XMenCypher and everyone that answered my questions in this post. Thanks for your explanations and opinions. You gave me plenty to think about

Look at this thread:
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...spots-1089451/
In hand 1, he have 9BBs in the BTN. There has been a discussion whether K8o is shove or fold. No clear conclusion, so it's kind of a grey area (and very good players seem to prefer folding K8o and K9o).

Shouldn't our pushing range UTG be MUCH tighter? If K8o or K9o is a grey area on the BTN, I suppose it's a snapfold here?

In the hand you linked ICM is a significant factor. I'd push K8o there fwiw. You can be a lot looser in pure chipEV spots.

Those are ICM spots, big money jumps etc. It's much much different. You shouldn't apply ICM calculations to this spot.

I thought ICM doesn't make us push that much tighter, but it makes our opponents call much tighter.

I'm gonna play around in SngWiz and check all this out. These spots occur very often in 180s.

~15-20%, every Ax/every broadway combination is too wide.

seems bad 9handed

awice would disagree with you K8 statement liamof