Hi everyone,

This is my first post here so be kind

I play a pretty lag style in these and run at around 22/20 8% 3bet. I am finding my early/middle bust outs are quite a bit higher than a lot of other players at these however most regs play more along the lines of 14/12. I guess what I am asking is whether it is normal to have a higher early/middle bust out playing this style. I haven't really found many players to compare these stats with. My thinking behind this style is I will go late a little less often but when I do I will have the stack size to be able to win the tournament.

Me and a friend compared our bb/100 at every level in a few thousand 2.50 sngs we've played so far this year and I was making more bb/100 each level (considerably more in some levels). Yet he is winning more $ than me. Does this mean that it's more important to go late more often with a shorter stack than it is to try and build a big stack but across fewer tables.

Any help or advice is appreciated.

pretty sure it's better to play tight early and loosen up as the tournament goes on

if you double up early, you go from 1500 to 3000, that's nice, but it doesn't do that much since you'll still have to double up quite a few more times to get to the money
all the early double up will do for you is give you another 10-20 minutes before you have to start shoving
not saying it's bad, but I don't think it's worth throwing away tournaments for since it's only a small advantage

22/20 isn't really LAG, but it's close
think it's way too loose for the early stages of a tournament though, unless you're playing other tournaments than I am, most players early tend to play way too loose, so we should play tight
you need fold equity to play LAG and there just isn't much if any in the early stages of tournaments, unless you're playing good players

Early I'm opening AK-AJ. All pocket pairs and a lot of suited connectors. (I am only doing this in the 10/20 + 30/60 levels). After that I tighten my range more then widen it again later on. I don't feel like I am busting a lot due to this at all, as wouldn't this be classed as early and not early/middle finishes?

Pairs and sc I'm opening/folding if 3bet. Unless it's multiway and the odds are good enough for me to see the flop.

I'm cbetting pretty much all flops after opening pair or sc unless it's multiway. Players will usually fold to the cbet. If I don't hit the flop hard I will just check fold. Saw the maths somewhere that proved this was profitable based on how many times you'll hit, get just the blinds, give up on turn, get 3bet pre etc.

My reasoning for doing this is because there is a lot of bad players still in the first few level and if I hit one of those flops hard I could potentially stack someone. If I don't I can just give it up and only have lost 150 or so chips.

I know it isn't really lag but I am pretty much the loosest reg in these games so it technically is in these.

Anyone else have any views on this?

Do you think you're playing pretty optimally with <15 bb's? bb/100 generally won't indicate anything wrt to short stack play and you could be leaking there.

It does seem like you're being too loose early on though - have you checked how profitable you are with certain hands/groups of hands (e.g. 54s-76s)?

Do you find yourself being pretty short at the bb100 lvl (<11bb's or so)? If so, then you're more likely to be shoving wide by the bb150/200 lvls - basically trying to stay afloat due to the blinds blinds as opposed to actually having a short stack edge. How do your win rates (mainly cEV won) look with those blind lvls + what is your avg aipf equity% with those lvls?

What are your win rates from the blinds (and cEV won again) when bb100+?

Microdegen you've posted some pretty interesting questions.

I think what might be causing this issue is that I'm taking larger -ev shoves than I probably should at around <7bb in some situations. I imagine this is something that that could definitely effect that as early/mid would be the stage we start push/fold?

I have a 35,000 hand sample at the 10/20 level. 22, 33, 55, 66, 1010-AA is making me money. The pairs in between aren't. Some of the suited aces are, some aren't. All the no gapper suited connectors are making me money except for 2-3s and J10s.

I have a 29,000 hand sample at the 15/30 level. Here the picture seems to change quite a bit. Only pairs 77> are making me money and one gapper suited connectors 78s+. Also some two gappers like 107s 106s Q8s, J8s, 95s, 97s.

Are these big enough sample sizes to gauge anything from? As I do have some abnormal results where hands that should be profitable aren't like AQs, 99 for example.

It definitely seems once it hits the 15/30 level I can cut out the lower pp's from my range and also it looks a good idea to cut out some 3 and 4 gappers from my range altogether.

At the 50/100 level my bb/100 is 7.04. Net chips won 244,565. Ev adjusted $112,688. Avg aipf equity is 55.4%

You didn't ask about 150 level but I thought it might be worth pointing out this is only 0.80 bb/100. Avg aipf equity is 57.2%.

100/200 level similarly is also 0.71 bb/100. Net chips won 31,990. Ev adjusted $67,953. Avg aipf equity 52.8%.

At the 250 + 300 levels it returns to around 6 bb/100. Avg aipf equity 54.7%.

For a 22,000 hand sample in each of the blinds bb100>. -13.94 in the sb with -$23,000 chips won and -$1,800,000 adjusted. -49.70 in the bb with -$5,300,000 chips won and -$5,300,000 adjusted.

Sorry for the long reply but I had to fit it all in! What kind of information can I derive from these results? Particularity avg aipf equity as this isn't something that I've came across before. Any advice you can give me based on these results?

Send me a pm and maybe I can help you.

Hi Suprguard I can't send a pm as I am a new user (been at pocket 5s for a while and I thought it was about time I get involved here too). I'm not sure if you are able to pm me and I can reply to that? If not I have skype.

Just send a mail with your skype name to suprguard@msn.com and I'll add you.

What are your shoving ranges with 7bb both with and without antes from each position?

Sample sizes are a bit small but they're big enough to identify certain things. Not winning with AQs, even over a small sample, is a bit strange. Perhaps over-playing it? How often do you 3-bet AQs/AQo? What's your W$SD% with AQ?

You can still setmine with PPs at 15/30 lvl but only call if you're getting implied odds of 20:1 (e.g. if villain min raises then effective stacks need to be 1200+). As for raising them I'd only raise 22+ from the HJ, 55+ from MP+2, 77+ from MP and 88+ from UTG+2.

When you mention 3/4-gappers do you mean hands like 95s? If so, you should only really be opening those on the BTN/SB (I assume you are (?)) and rarely calling (and when we do call it should only be to defend the BB) with them.

SB win rate is good, BB isn't terrible but could be better - might need to work on your calling ranges vs. shoves.

The avg. aipf equity% isn't a great stat to use but over a decent sample it can indicate whether you're being too tight/loose getting it in (for example your 57% at 75/150 over a decent sample would be a pretty clear indicator that you're being too tight getting it in). For now I'd just ignore it though.

Without antes I'm just shoving nash as if all my opponents were calling correctly (which I know they are not). I'm shoving wider than nash when antes kick in and I have a sub 7bb stack but it generally tends to be from utg or utg+1. I'm shoving pretty much anything that connects like 64o+, pretty much anything suited and Ax Kx. I imagine that this is probably a leak and I'm better of taking closer spots when in the button/cuttoff etc?

I used to shove wider than nash but it was kind of just mindless and not adjusted to my opponents. However since I starting shoving nash as if everyone is calling correctly I have hit a break even run, which at first I was putting down to variance but it's a bit of a big coincidence. I've gone from making 11bb/100 to 6bb/100 although not sure if variance can still be a factor in this figure though?

I think if anything I am probably underplaying AQ when the effective stacks are big. I never get it in pre early, probably one of the/if not the only hand that I flat pre flop if there have been raises infront. Kind of feel myself stuck if there is a raiser and a caller I just end up flatting instead of 3betting. My w$wsd is 55-56% with AQo-AQs. If I then add a filter to a +40bb stack I can see that I have ran bad with AQ.

I had been opening 3/4 gappers from any position in the first 2 levels (bad I know) but some of them are making me money somehow. I guess if I cut those out of my early + beginning middle position ranges then I will make more from them? I think my sb is good due to how frequently I 3bet from that position. I pretty much never flat in the blinds unless calling an all in shove, is that a leak? I know my all in shove calling ranges aren't up to par yet so I know I could definitely make more more from both of those positions.

Thanks btw, you've got me looking at stuff I didn't even know I could with holdem manager.

If there's a raise and a call when you have AQ I'd generally be squeezing unless opener is a nit. Not getting it in early is correct though (unless there's a maniac 3-betting wide, open shoving etc.).

With 7bb's w/ante the only time I'd shove all Kx is on the BTN, on the CO we can generally go K5o/K6o (depends on villains). Shove all Ax from HJ though. 65o on the SB I think, on the BTN the lowest off-suit connector I'd shove is 87o and lowest suited connector is 54s.
From UTG with 7bb's the lowest Ax I shove are A2s+ and A8o+, UTG+1 I'd add A5o, UTG+2 A5o+.
When you shove wider from earlier positions due to being short you really wanna shove suited hands like J7s, T7s etc. before hands like A2o, K6o etc.

Generally you shouldn't be opening 3/4-gapper hands at all except when stealing because you'll be bluffing/semi-bluffing way too much (which can easily be exploited), however if villains are pretty brain dead and just folding a lot (and you're winning with them) then idk what to say lol.

With antes, you should have a flatting range from the BB, but only in certain situations, e.g. 20bb effective and we have J9s vs. a SB open, I'd flat, whereas with 15bb it might be a shove instead (if villain is wide enough).
Pre-ante our flatting range should be a bit wider, for example 25bb effective vs. a 3x open SB steal from a villain opening 38%, I'd call something like TT-55 ATs-A6s ATo-A8o K8s+ KTo+ Q8s+ QTo+ J8s+ JTo T8s+ 97s+ 87s and 3-bet A2s-A5s, AJ+, JJ+.

I have only been opening those suited 3/4 gappers in the first two levels, after that I tighten up as we aren't as deep. Later on I will only open them from button/co/hijack with the right stack size and main intention being a steal. It seems that all pairs and 1 gappers are winning me money in the first level though so I will continue to open those and tighten up once we get to 15/30.

Vs a sb open is the only hand I'd flat against (forgot about that one). If the stacks are deep enough and I have a speculative hand I'd like to see a flop with.

This does seem quite odd to me but I suspect at the higher levels your friend may be opening up and taking more though slightly less profitable hands so making more per level. So also compare the number of hands, or rather vpip, involved for you both to see if this is the case, if you play 100 at 2bb/100 and your friend manages 300 at 1bb/100 your friend gains and you may be losing out by missing spots.

As far as roi goes in 180's there is such high variance present that you need 10k games just to get a feel of roi really. To get to approx. the same level of confidence as for a 9 STT player you need about 10 times the games so 10k games for a 180 player pins roi about as well as 1k for a 9 seat grinder.
This seems to indicate to me that it is hard to measure performance with actual results in 180s (unless you are a super grinder) and it's best to do what you seem to be doing and that is filtering your db and simply trying to find improvements that way.
I also play these tight early but there are many ways to win and basically adjusting to the players present seems the answer. If you get involved more with the fishy types you will be able to sustain a higher vpip.
If you try to adjust your play just to fit an idea of a perfect stat you are very likely to drop your roi.
I would always suggest you try to understand why an adjustment would improve your game even if a coach is telling you to. If you can't see the why you are missing some context and you won't be able to apply the change as you should.

Late on I steal more often than he does and play a wider range of hands in general.

We also compared vpip and pfr which backed up this fact.

He is definitely going deeper more often so will likely have more hands at the higher levels. Which takes me back to my early/mid bust outs being high.

I enjoy playing a looser style than playing tight however if I am losing money due to this in some places then I think I need to adjust.

What is the average profit per game you can make of those 2,50 180's ?

(i feel like grinding those instead of the 3,50 45's which make (if you're a solid kind of good player) 0,50$ a game.)

I've seen some players making something like 0.70-$1 per game. Not sure how much of that is run good and what is actually sustainable as no one really has a huge sample.

I believe 0.70+ cents a game is probably attainable if you are good though and don't run like ****.

An above average player will probably make more like 0.40-50 cents per game.

Thanks, yeah they are pretty new arent they? Havent played in a while because im travelling through the u.s at the moment but like i said i might want to grind them when i get back.

Depends if its +ev for me to make the switch.