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Originally Posted by wanderer_pro
totally disagree. if you want to wider their shoving range - you open. If you want to tighten their ranges, you shove...
+1
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...By shoving u put them in icm spot, not urself...
That doesnt necessarily mean we´re taking the right decission, we only profit from ICM decission when we´re either crushing villains range and/or we´re not in the hand.
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...Both line are +ev here (and i am sure about it). Question is, which is making you the most money in the longrun...
I would also considered how soft/weak the table is, for me is not enough to determine if X line is +EV i need to know by how much and if the edge compensate the risk im taking, for example on a soft table with bad players im gonna be more willing to pass on small/marginal +EV edges than on a tough table with solid/good thinking players, on this table im gonna take every edge i can get and even taking slightly negative EV ones.
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And I think, the better the players behind, the wider you can r/c
It depends if you have history vs these "better players" that know you´re capable of r/f AQo for example
:P
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Originally Posted by Leia Amidala
sorry but did you read my opening post? The players behind are NOT good. I dont think a gto line is optimal here. Exploitive play against players who do not 3bet (by a long shot) optimal.
Then i rather either to open push or r/f but personally im more leaning forward open shoving better than r/f AQo.
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...Jamming is certainly an option...
I think is the best option without specific reads on the villains.
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...And indeed we put our opponent in a tough icm spot...
This doesnt mean they know what ICM is maybe what u mean by NOT good players is that they are unaware of ICM meaning r/f is surely the best option here.
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Originally Posted by Leia Amidala
Everybody keeps saying this. But why? Just load this hand in hrc. You will see villain has to 3bet at least 30% ( or close to it ) for aqo to be breakeven. Ajo is a big loser. I dont think villain 3bet anything near this range. I get that 9-5 handed chiputility is a big part but 3 handed? Seems to me icm is the only factor.
Any comments appreciated.
I would start considering future EV in these close/marginal spots, if you have an edge vs these players u should be passing out small/marginal +EV situations (like open shoving or r/c), for us to say open shoving is better than r/c or viceversa we need a read that villain is an aggro restealer in these spots and/or is very aware of ICM and know we are also.
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Originally Posted by oldskool87
Forget icm for a second here. If we're opening x% of hands and folding AQo, what are we calling? AK,1010? That's becomes super exploitable villains can and should shove ATC on us. So we have to find a happy medium to call with so that were not getting mega exploited. If we decide that were not going to take any -icm edges then shove for the same reason as above we don't want to create a situation where we are supppper exploitable
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Originally Posted by LektorAJ
Added to the above, if they are both really bad then it's one of the occasions when your "tournament life" really does mean something outside of ICM calculations. It sounds like they're literally going to fold it away to you when you get heads up and possibly before so you don't need to flip now.
+1 to both, gold advice.