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2/180 2 FT spots

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09-12-2011 , 07:29 AM

GOHAN

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 399

Poker Stars, $2.28 Buy-in (2,000/4,000 blinds, 400 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 6 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #10547332

MP: 17,624 (4.4 bb)
CO: 57,640 (14.4 bb)
BTN: 128,635 (32.2 bb)
SB: 18,254 (4.6 bb)
BB: 15,156 (3.8 bb)
Hero (UTG): 32,691 (8.2 bb)

Preflop: (2,400) Hero is UTG with 3

Hero raises to 32,291 and is all-in

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final table, blinds raise within 1 min, only CO is pretty aggresive other guys are nits, how i have to analise my game here to figure out best % shoving range? wiz says SHOVE wih Chip model

Poker Stars, $2.28 Buy-in (2,000/4,000 blinds, 400 ante) No Limit Hold'em Tournament, 5 Players
Poker Tools Powered By Holdem Manager - The Ultimate Poker Software Suite. View Hand #10547342

CO: 16,739 (4.2 bb)
BTN: 47,340 (11.8 bb)
SB: 38,156 (9.5 bb)
BB: 109,498 (27.4 bb)
Hero (MP): 58,267 (14.6 bb)

Preflop: (2,000) Hero is MP with K

Hero???

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5 handed, blinds rise soon again, and again wiz say its shove in chip model and i think i put too wide range for all of them by like 2%, once again how to analise spots like this?

09-12-2011 , 07:38 AM

sjieez

centurion

Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 152

Why would you use chip model ? $ (ICM) fits this scenario way better right ? I could imagine the first one being a fold seeing your hand + other chip stacks. Same goes for the second hand. As you can see this is bottom of your range for shoving here in the chip model...

Last edited by sjieez; 09-12-2011 at 07:39 AM. Reason: so as an answer in how to analyse : use ICM

09-12-2011 , 10:12 AM

kierczot

newbie

Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 31

I'd fold K7s for ICM reasons.

Given your read, I push A3o here, but I'm still unsure whether it's +$EV without that read (I guess that WIZ suggests folding here almost always). I'll be happy to hear some opinions.

09-12-2011 , 02:07 PM

King Viktor

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 1,362

even if +ev i see both as folds, especially the A3o. your only getting called by a bigger ace/any pair or if your lucky wider by a fish, so chances are you will take it down, which is why its probably +ev. but you can also justify folding with 3 super short stacks infront of you whom you can outlast and maybe even get it in better with for a double up later on.

i dont see shoving K7 here with 14 bbs and a shortstack who will be crippled after blinds raise.

09-12-2011 , 04:35 PM

OMGClayDol

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 11,065

Saying wiz says shove with cev model is a mistake.. The difference is pretty big in many spots on the final table and often HUGE +cEV spots are clear folds because of icm. I think prob i dump both. also b champman obviously means +cev not +ev

09-12-2011 , 04:51 PM

GOHAN

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 399

so how to figure out when use cev spots and when icm in final table?

09-12-2011 , 04:53 PM

OMGClayDol

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 11,065

At a final table use ICM but generally be a bit wider with your range than the ICM range. I.e. if the icm says push 10% maybe I push 11-12% depending on the situation/stack sizes/etc.. that's just an example. of course you could use cev and push tighter, but it's closer to icm

09-12-2011 , 04:59 PM

martin_malin

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 3,332

risking 58k to win 115 weeeee

09-12-2011 , 05:00 PM

OMGClayDol

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 11,065

oh yeah you should actually look at how profitable it is btw, i forgot to look at that. 115 is like 2% of a bb in the second one! some edges are too small to be worth taking

09-12-2011 , 06:11 PM

#10

Pawelgracz

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 354

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMGClayDol

This is very good edvice on sng wizard, it confiuses me in some spots.

09-12-2011 , 06:16 PM

#11

OMGClayDol

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 11,065

Yeah IN GENERAL you can follow cEV until the final table, although in some spots (specifically on the final table bubble, 19-25 players or so left) there is some ICM/bubble considerations.. For the most part just use cEV until the final table, $EV on the final table (and usually be a little wider since ICM isn't perfect)

09-12-2011 , 06:20 PM

#12

Pawelgracz

journeyman

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 354

Quote:

Originally Posted by OMGClayDol

This is good to be explained TY.

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