PokerStars - $13.77+$1.23|10/20 Ante 3 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 75 BB
SB: 75 BB (VPIP: 40.74, PFR: 23.08, 3Bet Preflop: 25.00, Hands: 28)
BB: 75 BB
UTG: 75 BB
UTG+1: 75 BB
MP: 75 BB
Hero (MP+1): 75 BB
MP+2: 75 BB
CO: 75 BB

9 players post ante of 0.15 BB, SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.85 BB) Hero has Q A

UTG raises to 2 BB, fold, MP raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 13.85 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 12.85 BB, fold, MP calls 10.85 BB

Flop: (45.4 BB, 3 players) 8 9 7
BB checks, MP checks, Hero bets 17.35 BB, BB calls 17.35 BB, MP raises to 61 BB and is all-in, fold, BB calls 43.65 BB and is all-in

Turn: (184.75 BB, 2 players) 2

River: (184.75 BB, 2 players) T



ok thougts? Really hard to range them (both unknowns) as they both clicked min raise button and then called my sizable squeeze. Some one 3 betting a utg open from mp seams strong but with the fish raise sizings im thinking aqo probs good here vs their ranges. I make my 4 bet ( bit like a squeeze with the sizings) sizable which i think really defines my hand hopefully i only get called by one or none or i hit.

Im going to fold to any 5 bets cold or otherwise.

Now should i cbet this flop vs these 2 villains. Even though the flop is wet i elect to c bet small with 2 overs as i think the small sizing has pretty decent fe as bet sizing obviously aint there thing. Anyway as played i obviously then have to fold. should i just c/f this flop. I think from the pre flop action im getting called by hands you think a c bet should really fold out so perhaps i should just c/f?

so ok line? Felt a pretty bad hand in game, but perhaps its cos i got outplayed by 2 fish lol.

oh and not played many $15 so dont know how they play as regards to player pool but obviously i dont think these two are representive of player pool anyhow.

15s have pretty hard player pool,these 2 obv aint those... i would c/f it on this board without thinking

It's not really outplayed. Despite the actual match-up of the two hands, MP's hand had enough equity to go to the felt against your range whereas you didn't have enough to go to the felt against his range. They both misplayed preflop and BB also misplayed the flop. They managed to avoid mistakes on the turn and river though

I think I just check behind flop though I don't know whether that's right.

I haven't played stars MTTSNGs at this level but I wouldn't cold 4-bet action that starts UTG with AQo in my own under $5 player pool.

Ummm 15 player pool is pretty tough just like the rest of the turbo 180s, arguably easier then the 8's. Anyway no reason to pop it so much pre. Just flat and play in position against the possibly two fishy players, the reason not to raise so much pre is evident this type of thing will happen often in these games the fish will just call and now you have a mega inflated pot with air.. Now likely just checking back as played

How do you know i dont have enougth equity to go to the felt vs his range. How are you ranging him? What range are you putting him on? he is in a relative high BI raising a utg raise. but hes unknown and hes raise size is awful vs a utg 2x open.

Even in $15 i see fish play hands super bad. all kind of stuff from all kind of positions against all kinds of action. There arent that many of these in the higher buy ins but they do exist and exploiting them is super valuable and the best chance of this will be within the first orbit or so before we have enougth hud data to safely label fish. buy the time you realize they were playing 55/35 they will have donked of to someone else or occasionally lucked out to more then dubble up. I labble fish sometimes very quickly im happy to relabel occasionally if my early read was wrong but sometimes when say someone min rr a 6 way pot on the bb you dont need to see their cards to know there are almost certainly a fish. Even if hud stats do not yet indicate any tendencies.

I think we sometimes just characterise players by their hud stats but i think bet sizings can be super valuable in the first orbit to start profiling a player. This could of course be exploitable but i dont think regs are mimicing fish in this way so it doesnt matter that we are adjusting for early reads.

Im not saying making decisions based on such early reads is correct but I have been doing them and its working out ok so far (small sample).

I am also not saying i played this hand correctly because i dont think i did. I think the c bet didnt need to be succesful very often with that sizing but im not sure it even gets thorugh enougth to justify it at all.

Also when you think of action like this:- utg opens MP 3 bets Hero AQo in MP+1
Action?

That is not indicitive of the actual supposed strength of their ranges. My cold 4 bet vs this action is sort of a little more like a squueze 3 bet as the actual 3 bet didnt impose any FE on the utg open so the dynamics of the hand are actually completly different IMO.

Im not saying any of my ramblings are correct, its just my take on a strange situation. Also what may be negatively effecting my rational is that ive been playing a lot of the $3.5R where the rebuy element mean there are loads of degens/fish / gambliers in first orbits and exploiting these is a far larger consideration in that format.

Banging up AQo isn't how. Position, combo draws, sets are how.

And it's perfectly fine to let fish run up stacks.

You forced the issue here with A hi and what you saw at showdown was probably the bottom of their ranges. From the way you're describing this, you didn't know they were fish until you folded and saw the race.

If not 1 but 2 opps are rai-calling your 4b to something obscene, you prob don't want to c-bet those flops to a very high %.

As with every 180, small nucleus of good winning regs/plenty of fish for regs to stay.

3k or 4.5k chips in the first couple orbits affects +$EV less than you may think. It does, but not to the extent you should be doing stuff like this. Stick with your core game, it got you this far, eh?

I take what your saying on board, yeah c bet was plain bad but the rr pre proabably was bad vs unknowns in a player pool im not used to yet. And my logic was kind of backwards. My thinking was higher BI less fish so exploiting the fish that remain is of greater importance. but in regards to early read adjustments, the greater percentage of fish a player pool has the more likely a early read is correct just simply down to the fact that there are more fish.

Would the line be any better at $0.5 180 man?

Oh and i get what your saying I shouldnt be adjusting to early reads but i just do do this, it is part of my core game.

A hud takes time to be meaningful but if you observe bet sizings you can sometimes provisionally profile players pre 20 hands. Some bet sizing just make no sense whatever their hand.

Also Ive been playing lots of peopl in the last month that a few months ago i would label reggy as playing like 17/17 or 16/18 or something with other stats also reggy looking. but some of these players are super bad with massive leaks. yes there raising or 3 betting as often as they should but they are doing so when they shouldnt and not doing it when they should. As well as other massive leaks like not adjusting for ICM , bubble factors and table dynamics. What im saying is bet sizing and other factors that our huds dont pick up are super valuable.

Im new and this is just how ive been playing them. I may be super bad time will tell.

Actually ive considered this and it just takes to much observation and note taking if im to increase from 6 tables i propably need to abandon this non standard parts of my game.

Actually, in these you don't bet these flops period at these. The equity is ok three-way, but this isn't one of these hands.


You're determining this from a position where NLHE is solved. It's not.

Look how well an isolate of suited connectors/gappers does here:

{64s-T8s/65s+ etc, find your own gap limit.}

Or more suited Kings, Queens down to K2s/Q2s. Just not every time. Find a frequency.

Even J2s+ does v well here equitywise. it's also an blocker if it's J2...

Players talk about A games and D games. I mean, it's fine to wallow in D games for awhile. Good way to learn.

Ive been on a heater which does mean bad practice may be rewarded in the short term. So I need to make sure a good run doesnt mean leaks spring up in my game. FPS etc.

Talking about A game B game etc. If your familair with the inch worm model. Well i think my inch worm may be getting a fat arse!

I would not 4bet pre and flop I'd check and give up.

Don't 4b vs unknowns, although you have a sexy hand to do so and 3-bettors sizing is weird. The problem is you don't have a clue why he is doing it and there s still OR who raised from UTG who is prolly having a quite tight range. Betting OTF is very bad, imo. Just give up.

I usually tend to keep the pots smaller with hands like AQ in the beginning of a Sit n go against unknowns. I prefer to see who I'm up against before I start reacting like you did. If this would be a small buy in 180 man you could even go all in preflop, because people there are crazy on the first hands of sngs, but this is not the case. I would just call pre and c/f the flop.