^^^ all very interesting. Now please answer the question about where the confiscated money went. Also, a more general question: when you confiscate money, lock accounts etc, does it always go to other players or does Lock sometimes decide to keep it themselves?

Should we assume that since you continue to ignore my posts which pose a direct question about the dispensation of the confiscated funds that they were in fact retained by Lock?

He usually likes to answer questions that are easy. Quite often he replies to questions that are framed differently -- yet the same questions he's answered before -- because he already has a response for them. There is a strong correlation between his lack of detailed responses and tough questions; he typically defers them as things he isn't privileged to discuss on "an anonymous forum," ignores it completely (and focuses on another post where someone calls Lock a scam) or tip-toes around it without actually answering you.

I'd imagine the protocol for a situation where someone won money in this context is one where the funds would be confiscated and divided out amongst the final table or player prize pool of those other participants in the tournament, with the $50 or whatever it was being given back to the person scammed. In before Shane replies to us both with the "I can't discuss security matters or policies relating to security issues on an anonymous forum."

In all fairness, if Lock's reputation and cashout issues were sparkling clean (like Intertops), I highly doubt you'd even ask what they did with the funds. Lock can call it unfair, but you reap what you sow and I'm continuing to lose hope with them as the weeks pass.

Would really like to hear what Lock did with the tournament winnings. I mean if they determined op won them with "illegally" does the site keeping them mean two wrongs were committed?

This is what really irks me about you Shane. You are passive-aggressive with a tone of self-righteousness in the way you conduct yourself. Perhaps this is simply a reflection of the company you work for.

Either way, if Lock falls, it'll be for this same manner of grossly negligent conduct where you undermine the negative perceptions of your company by "anonymous posters on an internet forum" and online media and poker news reporting sites. Ask any good business -- and I don't mean in just the poker world -- and they'll tell you that public sentiment about their product or service absolutely matters to them. They wouldn't treat them as petulant people and/or customers that simply couldn't be satisfied (have read your posts discrediting poker news/opinion based sites). They'd make them feel important, try to understand why they feel the way they did and they'd make efforts to correct whatever was correctable within their business model and operations. Many companies pay for marketing and information from third-parties. Lock has an outcry from many people -- mostly from those directly affected -- and it's as if you simply don't care and wipe your butt with this information.

On one hand you have a subforum and advertise on twoplustwo so it only seems logical that Lock should care. On the other, you consistently degrade 2p2'ers as seemingly irrelevant, trivial or too small of a player base for those opinions to matter. I don't envy your job and your position and everyone knows you operate between a rock and a hard spot. That however is not a license to treat a relevant (whether you admit it or not) portion of your player base in a patronizing manner, veiled as a customer support rep trying to just help.

Well that's not always the case, take EA for example, got voted worst company in the US, their response was basically "wtf, how can WE be the worst company when there's companies causing death (indirectly such as causing cancer and other diseases), massive polution, etc. and they're right about it, they're simply not the worst company. And that's basically the stance Shane is taking aswell, problem only being ofcourse there's very little souls believing in that (my point being: EA also doesn't go like "oh, what can we do to improve, you're all right we're so horrible")

Overall i still think it's a fair stance to take if you truely believe in that, though. As shown in the example above, the masses aren't always right (you truely have to be a giant idiot to vote EA as worst company when indeed, as they say, there's far, far worse companies out there.. the masses are apparantly filled with giant idiots, though)

And yes, i know, i'll once again be bashed for posting something like this. But let's face it, what's the only real problem with Lock right now? Right, cashout times. Now imagine they're all the way 100% honest and it really is payment processing issues and it's basically for the most part out of their control (other than efforts of finding new processing partners/solutions). Really, just try imagine it (you don't have to really believe it!! just imagine). Now do you still think Shane's stance on most things isn't fair?

No, you bring up good points. I think another large company that everyone knows about is Apple. Anyone who doesn't live under a rock probably knows that they were using underage labor, some of which literally were jumping off of the buildings (applying safety nets so that people couldn't commit suicide, pretty sad) for working every second of their life for peanuts. The difference is that Apple has its good points, which is innovation and good hardware and software (although I hate it) and there have been many ripple effects throughout the industry from Apple and Steve Job's that have had huge positive impacts on the company and this country.

Also, as with life, it's how they respond to issues that dictates the true character of a business and whether or not it probably will survive. A quick Google finds abc shedding some positive light on this and also on Apple's website they are addressing underage labor. Now, we could get into a discussion on why they changed their tune but the reality is that businesses do shady things every day to survive, sometimes knowingly and sometime unknowingly. At least Apple is trying to rectify a problem even if they'd of perhaps remained quiet if no one shed light on the issue and their impact is way more positive than negative.

Let's be honest here. What is Lock doing right? We all know they offer the best VIP/rewards program. Anything else? Do they usually come out and admit faults explicitly in the form of statements? Are they organized and keep their word? (what about that new March payments option posted 2 months ago?) Suffice to say, I think there are many other issues with Lock beyond the cashout problems. Furthermore, if it's not liquidity issues (very well may not be their primary issue) then can't you argue they shouldn't have left Merge when they did or at the very least have implemented the proper logistical attack of ensuring the smoothest transition and semi-aquisition of Revolution to mitigate any potential problems? Maybe put a hold on new sign ups, put out a disclaimer on cashout problems so people are aware initially? No, we've seen nothing of this sort. As with any disease or illness etc, you typically see symptoms that hide massive problems and the cashout issue is just one symptom of other issues. Where there is smoke there is usually a fire.

The fact that Lock really has nothing going for it is a huge indictment and why they really (imo) don't have a leg to stand on right now when even ROW players are waiting more than 100 days for a withdraw. You know me, I've been trying to be a Lock supporter, just hoping and hoping they'd turn things around. I'd be lying if I tried to say that currently they're improving in any area. If they are, we have yet to see it from the outside and we can only go for so long crossing our fingers and saying "hey, give them time to fix things, maybe they really do mean it this time."

Imho people are more forgiving than we like to admit. If people or businesses come clean, admit they're wrong and actually show proof of change then I think you'd see them boom again. As it stands, these issues have been going on for more than a year and only getting worse. I'm still crossing my fingers and hoping for positive change b/c Lock still has an opportunity to gain market share (players) and build themselves up again. It's not too late, but the sun is definitely setting....

EDIT: If it is only payment processing issues, that still falls on Lock as a logistical/management/strategy blunder. If I go to a business and I want to buy something or have a service performed for me and something on their end hurts their ability to complete the agreement, its still on them. This is why (good) businesses conduct feasibility studies, SWOT analysis and a multitude of other types of studies before opening their doors to ensure they always have a solution via Plan A, Plan B etc. It's not hard for a poker site to pop up and provide great VIP services and say "hey, we welcome U.S. players." The hard part is determining if they can handle the influx of traffic, higher volume and payment processor demand required to handle it. If it were that easy you'd see an influx of poker sites trying to enter the U.S.-serving (unregulated) market.

Here is the problem that many of you pro-Lock folks are missing:

No Lock funds ever changed hands.

Therefore, it's none of Lock's business.

If Lock Poker funds were sent from one account to another, and then one of the two parties cries foul, then it is perfectly acceptable for Lock to get involved.

In this case, it was simply a guy saying, "Hey, one of your players promised to send me Lock funds, and he never did! Take his money and give it to me!"

This is between the guy complaining and Paypal, and should NOT involve Lock Poker.

In fact, this exact scam could be pulled off without even having a Lock account. You could just pick a random name on Lock Poker, claim you're that person, arrange a trade with someone, and then just take the money sent on Paypal and disappear. Should the person whose account you claimed to have be punished? Of course not.

That's not what happened here, but it's just one of many scenarios where shenanigans could occur.

Basically, if Lock's system and software were NOT used to facilitate scamming or stealing, they shouldn't get involved.

Here's another example:

Let's you post that you need $1,000 in Wells Fargo, and I respond telling you that I will trade for $1,000 in Bank of America. I ask you to transfer first, and you send me the money on BofA. Then I never send you the money on Wells Fargo. Could you go into Wells Fargo, show them chat logs and your BofA records, and get them to take $1,000 out of my account?

No. Wells Fargo would tell you to GTFO, and to take it up with either the police or Bank of America -- where the actual money changed hands. Wells Fargo has no moral or legal liability to get involved, since they were never part of any transactions here.

Same with Lock.

People should not be able to get others' accounts closed and/or money confiscated in situations where no transfers occurred on Lock.

BTW shane, while you're here, care to explain why Lock hasn't been paying its skins or cashing out its non-US players in less than 4 months? How does it feel to work for a company that stole everyone's money Full-Tilt-style? Hope you sleep okay at night, buddy!

Actually it did involve Lock funds, OP actually received a transfer of Lock funds then reversed the story here to get sympathy.

Feels great to work for Lock, cashouts are getting caught up things re looking much better.

Have you mentioned yet in this thread that the guy was reversing the story, or are we just hearing about this now on page 12?

Has Lock "caught up" with its payments to its skins?

How do you explain the skins not being paid (such as AdamEvePoker) if Lock isn't broke?

How do you explain the 4-month cashout time for non-US players, when there is no issue involving illegal payment processors with them? How come every other poker network can cash out non-US players instantly?

Also, are the same people working for Lock security that missed the super-obvious cheating/chip-dumping committed by Girah in that contest? My two-year-old son could have fingered that as chip-dumping for purposes of cheating a contest, but somehow your crack security staff missed it.

Yet we're supposed to trust the competence of Lock security on this one. Okay.

You rattle off questions like these haven't been addressed anywhere on 2+2. How are these questions relevant to the thread?

this below especially is a "no" Lock was on Merge Network.

I don't know, I just felt like I had to tell you that you haven't found the "smoking gun" here. Seems like your whole intention was just to rip up the moderator, Shane, and vent a little.

We're all frustrated... so I know how you feel.

Shane are you going to address the issue of where the winnings went when Lock confiscated them?

does this fall into the T&Cs of Lock Poker?

19. Forfeiture, Account Closure and Confiscation.

or is it something different?

Some of these questions asked are relevant. Yes, the thread has become somewhat detoured, but there are many valid questions that still remain. Have you read every post in this thread? Yes, it sounds like some venting is mixed in, but I don't think he was looking for a smoking gun. Shane has become an expert at avoiding many questions and/or posts and replying to others in a passive-aggressive way mixed in with a touch of failed rhetoric so no I don't feel sorry for him when the tip toes around things and selectively answers to what he wants.

Hi LiarsDice, I'll read it over again now. But it seems like all the questions were answered.

I yesterday quoted Shane directly and he didn't reply to me. He selectively chooses what he does and doesn't want to answer. The essence of Shane, as issues continue to pile up is one where people ask him questions and he replies with "Feels great to work for Lock, cashouts are getting caught up things re looking much better." I mean really that's it?


I won't beat a dead horse about this, but that is my position on the matter and posting in this "anonymous" forum is probably a waste of time for myself, yourself and others... (obvious I'm losing hope here).

Funds are returned to a defrauded player where relevant. When an account is closed for fraud the forfeiture rules as per the T&C's apply.


Yes I had mentioned it previously my post is here

Lock was never behind with its payments to the network, as Ive stated previously I have no access to any information on the relationship between Adam and Eve so I can shed no light on what happened there.

Processing for US players still affects your ROW payments, the DOJ doesn't really differentiate between the two. You might remember that when Black Friday went down it wasn't just US players funds that were taken. Rooms that are processing ROW payments fast are usually not accepting US players, those that do accept US players and are still processing fast have either turned their main focus to other markets such as Asia to reduce the amount of US funds they are handling or in most cases are such small rooms that the amounts they have to process are very small.

When the Girah scandal happened we were on the Merge Network and all security was handled by a central security team. So it was actually the Merge security team. When we took over the Revolution network we ensured we had more control over the security team so we could bring in some of the best in the business which we have done.

well I was going to paste in some answers I found in the forum... but Shane came in and answered.

This thread has been derailed for sure, and the most interesting thing is the OP is gone and hasn't responded when he or she was called out. Why don't they care to defend themselves? Instead we're left to do it for them?

The person who I was responding to in this case was arguing against me using rumours from these forums as the basis of their argument.

What I find very interesting is for most of society there is a general rule of "you cant believe everything you read on the internet", its widely accepted that with the internet constructed how it is there is such a wide scope for unsubstantiated claims to pushed forward as absolute truth.

Im reading a fantastic book right now called Trust Me, I'm Lying: Confessions of a Media Manipulator which goes into great detail about how the lack of fact checking and verification of internet based news (especially blogs) allowed this person to easily spread missinformation. In a more recent situation we had the case where Reddit was covering the horrible situation in Boston and the New York Post took this information running a photo of what turned out to be innocent people on their front page.

Im especially in a hard place because things havent been great here. Our cashouts have been well below the standard we would like them to be, this has in turn led to a lot of negativity allowing more and more rumours and theories to become truths, despite any real evidence or insight to support them.

A great example of that recently was someone who is viewed as being connected and somewhat of an insider posting that another room on Revolution was growing and would soon be the biggest room on the network. This was based on them seeing more tables in the lobby, which was actually a reflection of the network tweaking the Fair Play rules giving that room more access to Lock Poker players. So the 'growth' was actually just them seeing more Lock players and the room that was apparently going to be the biggest on the network remains a tiny percentage of the network in terms of both revenue and players.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply.

What you wrote prior:
Given that you've posted this same rationale about anonymous posters on an internet forum several times over the past few months I'm not sure how to take it other than you believe posters on 2p2 don't have a leg to stand on as far as major issues going on or possible theories, both crazy and realistic.

I completely agree with you about this. It's why I don't watch Fox news and I try to follow unbiased sources that aren't fed with Corporate and Political money.

Keep in mind this same logic applies to why people don't believe anything Lock does or doesn't do anymore. Example? How about the March cashout options? We can't believe everything we read online, and Lock's subforum is no different. You in this context are a News Anchor for Fox News; even if the story is unadulterated in nature, any intelligent being is going to question the content due to your vested interest with the company (Lock).
I don't doubt that some blogs and poker news sites and affiliates have some linkage and financially-laced reason to bash Lock and sponsor or promote Lock's competition. We can't just believe everything we see or hear and if you haven't noticed by now, I'm always playing devils advocate and questioning everything.

But what about cashout durations from actual players themselves? What motive do they have to lie about how long their payouts are taking? It only reduces Lock's value and hurts the company so they're obviously frustrated. Many reputable people have posted horrendous delays. There are no lies here. Just organic information from the source that truly indicts the problems Lock is having.

While there appears to be formal outing of any of the other issues such as reconciliation reports with skins, you as an intelligent person have to understand why people should question Lock with more scrutiny for reasons as you noted in your response about tainted information.

We're obviously derailing the thread. The fact of the matter though is that when you have enough reason to question the integrity of a person or business you've allowed legitimate doubt to creep in. Rumors become possible and realistically plausible, even if they'd otherwise seem like pure slander. Factor this in with fundamental flaws in trying to police scamming issues in an unregulated market and it's just "hell in a handbasket."

EDIT: I'm going to use my ONE TIME right now and hope that Lock finds a way to fix things and hope that I'm not drawing dead.

Here is the thing Shane, the person with the biggest incentive to lie is you.

You want people to not believe stuff written by their counterparts, but believe you every time you try to spread all this **** thin enough for you to walk through. You are good at your job. A lot of people are/will be dumb enough to believe your words.

At the end of the day when you go to sleep in your unknown cavern. Know in your soul that even if you lie to yourself about your motives deep inside you know you are a scrum. That's enough for me.

So does this mean Lock can confiscate ill-gotten funds and then keep them for themselves? Why would they not just go back to the tournament in question and bump everyone up one pay spot? It would not be that difficult to do and the positive would be that it shows to everyone that they do care about the player and not themselves. Seems pretty simple solution to me.

The above is a laughable explanation, as it says nothing and completely ignores my point.

Rather than clutter this thread with the endless cashout discussion, I will repost this elsewhere in a more appropriate place and take you to task for it.

BTW, when I talked about "Lock security" regarding the Girah situation, I wasn't being serious. I was actually pointing out that Jennifer Larson, the CEO of Lock, was happy to award the prize to Girah despite obvious cheating, and only reversed her stance when publicly shamed into it. Even then, she lied in a press release as to what occurred.

But we all know that. Have fun sleeping tonight.

Was it deemed relevant in this circumstance?

I'll ask again. Was the $50 returned to the accuser?....Were the tournament winnings redistributed to the other players in the tournament?

Done responding here Shane? You have a vested monetary interest in closing accounts in situations like this and are apparently the only ones who benefit from it if restitution is not being made to those who you claim to be protecting.