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** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

09-18-2011 , 12:42 AM
Ideas are great and are important at the beginning. But the thing is, without a good staff and good design, it is not going to get past that starting phase.
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09-18-2011 , 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gaming_mouse
dave,

1. Use whitespace to separate your concepts

2. You always write:

Code:
    
boolStraight = straight(ranks)
    if boolStraight == True:
when it's clearer and more concise to write:

Code:
if straight(ranks):
If you want to visually suggest the bool type just name your methods using the "isXXX" convention, like "isStraight()".

Some larger design issues to consider:

1. You are mixing "presentation" and "logic" here. This method should probably return the name of the hand that you are printing, and the client code should print it.

2. Probably the most importatn thing. Your code is essentially checking a list of conditions in order, and returning the first one that matches. You should leverage python's functional programming abilities to accomplis this. It's been a while since I've done any python, so this is going to be psuedocode, but it should be clear enough. Rewrite the whole function in a few lines like this:

Code:
handCheckers = [quads, flush, straight, etc]
foreach (checker in handCheckers)
  if (checker(ranks, suits))
    return checker.name;
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler_cracker
gaming mouse is spitting the hot fire.
+

****ing awesome post. Thank you sooooo much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zurvan
Serious question: is that your job? Do you know enough about programming to adequately judge somebody else's skill?
Unfortunately, yes, it is my job to make sure the site is functional and looks good. Mind that I am the only non-manager except the web guy who is assigned this duty, so that should show you how seriously they needed my help. Even though I can't offer much, I can at least judge what should and should not be hard, offer opinions, and I think I may end up having to take the lead in this whole thing, hopefully preventing a quagmire.

As for the rest of the team, I look like friggin' Dikstra in comparison. It is also clear that their 'new' site isn't so hot, and they got pretty well screwed over by the people they hired out last time. They want to have someone they can keep an eye on, but they don't know what they want or how to explain what they want.

The current site is dismal at best. There are massive errors in the presentation and usability. The most egregious example is that they have three columns of items as their main navigation. this wouldn't be so bad if they didn't have javaScript mouse-overs, so that when the pop-up window appears, it covers part of the nav menu. Okay, if this doesn't sound bad, then get this: when you mouse-off, the pop-up stays up on the screen so that the navigation menu is rendered useless.

Obviously the site is completely worthless without full js functionality. It looks like some guy just hacked together a bunch of jQuery and handed the site back.

The management who hired this guy is the same management who hired this new guy, so you can see where they are and you can at least see where I am.

As for adaquetly judging a programmer, well...

Can I blow the last guy out of the water? Yes I can. Can I blow this guy out the of the water? I can't really risk asking too many technical questions because I don't want to make myself look like I am capable of creating the APIs the site needs/wants to modernize.

I just had dinner with one of the managers, who I am friends with, and I couldn't help myself. I asked if this guy knew how to javaScript, and she said she didn't know. I also told her I was worried about the fact that he couldn't program at all in database and PHP, and she looked at me and said: "He doesn't do PHP?"

She them proceeded to tell me that they hired this guy because they really needed help maintaining and creating a MyAdmin account. He told us at the last meeting that databases wasn't his thing, so what good is he for this?

I think that when you are attempting to create a site of the difficulty of the one we are currently working on, it is not really a good idea to use a guy who will "probably" use Joomla! or Drupal. I would like someone who would say "I ~will~ use Drupal/Joomla/Magento/whatEver because 1 2 3 4 5."

Why? Because when this guy tells us that populating a database or XML to display only red coffee mugs on a web page is "too hard to do," I can't see how he would be qualified to create a site where our clients can log in to see order status, create orders with a secure log-in, and make the site accessible to people from the office to imput those order trackings.

Oh, and of course he is going to create a clickable slide-show without PHP or javaScript?

I can understand someone using a CMS to do all the above (plus way way more) but I am not confident in someone who knows absolutely no back-end at all and ~must~ use a CMS. At some point, I would like that guy using a CMS to be able to find the PHP files and tweak them to if they had to.

Obviously I'm not qualified to assess someone's programming prowess beyond a certain level, but this guy isn't very high level.

Also note that we aren't at the point where we are at CMS yet, so the web guy has to do all the above without a CMS unless he can convince management that's the only way. I'll def. block that assertion because it would appear to me that he is only buying time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheIrishThug
Ideas are great and are important at the beginning. But the thing is, without a good staff and good design, it is not going to get past that starting phase.
lol. I know it's not directed at me, but it is so fitting.

I have to take control of this disaster and take the fall, IMO. At least the disaster won't be as bad. Call it damage control.

Last edited by daveT; 09-18-2011 at 02:09 AM.
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09-18-2011 , 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gullanian
# of lines in a function is a really bad way to measure how good a function is. I have lots of functions over 26 lines because I just do!
I recall from Code Complete that studies found no loss of quality in long functions. My experience is the same. Zurvan has it right.
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09-18-2011 , 05:28 AM
I looked at the code on the site in question, and holy ****, it's worse than I thought at first.

No Doctype;
No h1, p, span tags
All <table><tr>....
NO <div>
TONS of repeat code.

It's patently absurd to see it. This is about the worst HTML, CSS, JS code I have ever seen on one webpage, and it is almost 1000 lines long.

The web guy we have now told us that fixing the front page is really easy because all he had to do is change some of the CSS. Of course, he emailed all of us an image shot of his 'final answer' and practically nothing has changed in the presentation. Why isn't he being forthcoming to us and saying that the coding needs a full overhaul before he can be expected to change anything? He's been working on this **** for two weeks and if I find out he hasn't changed one line of HTML or added a DOCTYPE I'll probably say something that will get me fired.

wtf, man. I'm very upset right now.

Last edited by daveT; 09-18-2011 at 05:32 AM. Reason: ....
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09-18-2011 , 09:27 AM
Dave: If it's your responsibility to make sure the site is right, then you need to make sure the guy you have is competent and able to do the job. Don't take responsibility for something you have no control over. Convince your boss to fire this guy if you're sure he can't do the job.

If you don't feel competent to evaluate a programmer, see if you can convince them to bring in a consultant to help with the hiring process. If they insist on moving forward with this guy, get the hell out of the way. You don't want the stink of this on you.
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09-18-2011 , 09:53 AM
Ahhh all table based layout... lol...

Probably best to approach management now with your concerns? Once you've done that, it's out of your hands and you don't have to worry about it. Don't lose sleep over it!
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09-18-2011 , 10:54 AM
I agree with Zurvan and Gullanian. You said that it is your job to make sure the site is functional and looks good. Based on what you said, this guy will not deliver what is required. Therefore, it is your job to either replace him or bring someone else in to help him with the aspects he is lacking.
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09-18-2011 , 04:16 PM
I sent an email to management last night telling them that I wanted to see the code this guy is planning to use on the new pages he created. I'll report back here Monday night.

I'm just shocked that this site was built less than one year ago. **** yeah, management needs tons of help, and yes, I think you guys are right that I must step out of the way if we can't let this guy go.

I know management wanted to give this guy a little more time, but I think this is my moment to step up.
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09-18-2011 , 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveT

We would like something where if you bring up cups, and you bring up red, you see all the red cups. Amazon has that, why can't we?
You probably know this already but just in case, this is called Faceted search.

Apache Solr (pronounced solar) is an indexing server that integrates with many (all?) languages that provides this feature and many more.

There is also a drupal module that provides this functionality for drupal sites.

Hope any of this was useful.
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09-18-2011 , 06:18 PM
Are there any Heroku experts out there? I want to use them for a project but I'm wondering how much it will cost and their price evaluator makes me think I'm missing something obvious because it's so expensive.

1x Dyno + 1x Worker: $35/month
1x Argon Add-on (CouchDB) $20/month (could easily become more)
1x Redis Add-on $20/month (maybe $5/month to start)
+$20-60 in odds and ends add-ons that you would expect on any VPS

So at minimum you're looking at $65-70/month for a site with low/no traffic, and could easily be $100+ with the standard add-ons I didn't include and more than a 5MB redis server.

Why is this so expensive? Isn't a reasonable VPS like $30-40/month? I know you can scale up Heroku on the fly and that's a huge benefit but I can't imagine a site growing past 1x decent VPS setup in a few months unless it was a smash hit.

Edit:
I know they offer a service more than hosting but come on... it would only take about 30-45 minutes to setup and configure the above once the OS has been installed (which is simple, just mildly time consuming). You also wouldn't be restricted to using their versions of the tech you plan to use going the VPS route.

Last edited by Shoe Lace; 09-18-2011 at 06:28 PM.
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09-18-2011 , 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoe Lace
Why is this so expensive? Isn't a reasonable VPS like $30-40/month? I know you can scale up Heroku on the fly and that's a huge benefit but I can't imagine a site growing past 1x decent VPS setup in a few months unless it was a smash hit.

Edit:
I know they offer a service more than hosting but come on... it would only take about 30-45 minutes to setup and configure the above once the OS has been installed (which is simple, just mildly time consuming). You also wouldn't be restricted to using their versions of the tech you plan to use going the VPS route.
You answered the question yourself. A $50-$100/month premium is nothing if you're trying to build something quickly and it saves you a couple of hours (plus the risk of screwing something up and making it take way longer).

There's also the mentality that a lot of people have that obviously their site is going to be a huge success and they're going to need to be able to scale up right away.
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09-18-2011 , 08:56 PM
Hmm, so that estimate of $70-100ish is what it really costs?

You can get 4gb of ram, 160gb of HD space to install whatever you want, 5 TB/month in data transfers through a VPS for $83/month and that's after 15 minutes of Googling (might be better places out there). Those specs just blow Heroku out of the water at the same price.

Installation issues aren't really too big of a deal. It's hard to really do something wrong when you have 100% guaranteed to work steps to follow (I have an installation text file for my web stack which I use when I move around hosts).

Unforeseen problems are an issue but Heroku could have these problems too. If one of your processes stops I doubt they will restart it, it'll be up to you or some automated script that you implemented to do it. I imagine if something seriously goes wrong like the CPU melts on the box controlling your VM then there will be an equal amount of down time between Heroku vs a semi-reputable VPS hosting site.

I guess Heroku just isn't popular among non-profitable sites that are up and coming?
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09-18-2011 , 09:18 PM
Sorry, I should have been more clear - I don't have experience with using Heroku. I have done some looking at their business model and was just commenting on why people use it.

I think you're underestimating the amount of pain some people have with setting up/deploying/administering sites.
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09-18-2011 , 09:21 PM
Flash to be dropped from Win8 tablets:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14949869
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09-18-2011 , 09:51 PM
Follow up question, has anyone used http://www.myhosting.com? They have a custom VPS builder.

You can have 200GB of HD space, 2GB of ram, 1GHz CPU, 1.2 TB/month for $35ish a month with no contracts. That seems pretty reasonable. Thoughts?
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09-18-2011 , 11:14 PM
I have used myhosting for domain registration and am unhappy with the customer service. First, they're Canadians. Second, after paying them for a year they cancelled my service which prompted more phone calls. If I cared more about the domain names I'd transfer them to a different hosting company. Probably what I'll do when I get back from AU.
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09-19-2011 , 12:07 AM
The benefit of Heroku is that they provide a custom solution that is easy for developers who want to get a site up and running quickly.

Note I said developer. If you have no sysadmin skills then this is obviously worth the premium in price. Otherwise, you're obviously better off (in cost) to get a plain *nix VPS and install all the software yourself. But even then, I doubt you'll get a system as easy as Heroku's for doing deployments, etc.

I looked at Heroku but in end chose to run my own EC2 instances because with Heroku you have no control over which region/az your instances are run in.
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09-19-2011 , 12:50 AM
hey daveT, get your company to hire me

i can use wordpress and even a bit of php
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09-19-2011 , 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ankimo
The benefit of Heroku is that they provide a custom solution that is easy for developers who want to get a site up and running quickly.

Note I said developer. If you have no sysadmin skills then this is obviously worth the premium in price. Otherwise, you're obviously better off (in cost) to get a plain *nix VPS and install all the software yourself. But even then, I doubt you'll get a system as easy as Heroku's for doing deployments, etc.

I looked at Heroku but in end chose to run my own EC2 instances because with Heroku you have no control over which region/az your instances are run in.
Isn't Heroku also 4x the price of EC2, despite just being a layer on top of EC2? I think there is alot of value in the service they are providing, but not *that* much. I started with a VPS on my current project, but have ended up going with Amazon. It does take a few days to get comfortable, but using Chef scripts to help with automation makes it a lot easier.
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09-19-2011 , 04:56 PM
I think I just misunderstood their model / target audience. I kept hearing "yeah yeah, use Heroku for hosting they are awesome, do it do it" from everywhere so I figured they had some magical free/super cheap plan hidden away somewhere.

Definitely going the VPS/Amazon route. Amazon does look like it has a bit of a learning curve tied into it but it should be worth it in the long run.
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09-19-2011 , 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoe Lace
I think I just misunderstood their model / target audience. I kept hearing "yeah yeah, use Heroku for hosting they are awesome, do it do it" from everywhere so I figured they had some magical free/super cheap plan hidden away somewhere.

Definitely going the VPS/Amazon route. Amazon does look like it has a bit of a learning curve tied into it but it should be worth it in the long run.
We've been using Amazon a lot (EC2, S3, and SQS) and they can actually be kind of flaky. Once you get an instance up and running you're usually ok, but sometimes we get problems starting them.

The learning curve isn't horrible - especially if you're familiar with sys-admin type tasks but its not always easy.
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09-19-2011 , 06:54 PM
Services like Heroku charge more because they take a pain point away. They solve your hosting problem, as opposed to just providing a server. That has a lot of value.
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09-19-2011 , 07:19 PM
True but some of their prices are just straight up on drugs.

For example, CouchDB is known to be a fairly large (file size) database due to how it stores its data. It would be very very reasonable to assume a large content site could use upwards of 15-20 gigs without storing actual media in the database.

The 25gb couchdb add-on for Heroku is $119/month. I would feel pretty worried without at least the 8gb plan and that one is $39/month. The next step down is 2gb.

Then there's a 100mb redis server for $25/month, wtf lol.

500mb of indexed full text searching for $55/month with Sphinx.

$3/month if you want to run more than 1 cron task per day.

So now we're approaching $200/month and we haven't even setup the dynos/workers. That's another $35/month * n instances.
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09-19-2011 , 07:24 PM
Yeah lol @ the prices there. I've dealt with a lot of startups here that use Rails and when I ask about Heroku they all say "awesome concept, lol @ the price." Most people here used AWS until they **** the bed 10 times; some stay with AWS but a lot have just gone to VPS/Cloud hosting.
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09-19-2011 , 07:54 PM
How the hell are there not more companies offering Heroku's "you don't have to know **** about sysadmin" at reasonable prices? You would think the demand is huge....
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