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** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

05-27-2012 , 12:01 PM
what are you trying to do?
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-27-2012 , 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wull
what are you trying to do?
I am just trying to write a very small script for calculating (re)shoving ranges.

I'd like to be able to input my own hand and a range for my opponent (e.g. top 15% of hands) and then inputting these in Pokerstove to get my equity and use this in my script.

So, specifically, given my hand and my opponents range, I'd like Matlab to call Pokerstove (or PPT or whatever) and get my equity.
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05-27-2012 , 01:00 PM
If this is more of a programming exercise for you then the following won't help if you just want to get (complicated) Omaha EV-calculations done you can sign up at whats-my-line.com it's in beta but should be able to handle this. If it's of interest just send me a pm after signup and I'll unlock your account.
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05-28-2012 , 02:37 AM
I'm fully frustrated with the work I'm doing right now. I think reading too much here and other odd stuff has made me excessively paranoid about finding someone to do the company website. Of course, I'm somehow in charge of this garbage. I spent a few hours today collecting my thoughts and writing it all down. If I'm on the wrong track, let me know. Writing it out helps me to focus my thoughts and see the issue. Writing this also revealed to me a few ideas that I didn't notice.

Happy reading. If it's TL;DR, then don't read it. There's no summary. I do want to point out that web dev companies really make this whole process far harder than it has to be. Maybe if you are looking to build / expand / start your own, this will help you out.

Quote:
Ugh....

The company I am working for is finally pulling the trigger and building a new website. This is the single most stressful thing I have ever had to do at the job, and that is saying a lot!

Step One: Go to Google and enter "web design los angeles," which makes me feel sick to my stomach so I type "web development los angeles" but that query is not much more helpful. Results: 69 million.

Step Two: Plan of Action: be a total draconian a-hole and find any excuse at all to skip on to the next company. This is the list of instant disqualifications I have so far:

1- Is the site a total piece of crap? Now, I understand that companies are busy working on other projects and may not have time to create the next Uber-2.0 site, but if my eyes glaze over because the site looks like the side of a Nascar race car, I am typing "no" and clicking the back button.

2- Egregious Claims: One site says "We are chosen as Number One in SEO from Google." What? Next line: "Just Enter 'SEO Company offereing services in West Los Angeles' into Google and we will show up as number one." Oh, that's nice. My company is also chosen as Number One in search results. I simple enter into Google: "<company name> that sells <type of products>" and lo and behold, we're number one!

4- Can I navigate the site? I want to push one easy-to-find link and see the gallery. The sites that do it right have this link titled "Gallery" or "Our Projects" or something similar. The sites that do it wrong have something like "What We Do," "Who We Are," and "Our Customers." While having only one of those links would be okay, usually the company makes the mistake of having all of the links and none of them help me find the gallery. I want to see the work, and I shouldn't have to press more than two links (really no more that one link, but I'm forgiving) to find the gallery. Seriously, if the company can't make this simple navigation, how can I trust they will be able to create navigation on the complexity of my company's site?

5- Where's the Gallery? Some companies don't even have a gallery, or if they do, it's buried so deep I can't find it even after 5 or 6 clicks. Am I to assume that their client-base is so high-end that they can reasonably forbid reference? I'm having a hard time buying this thought, so on to the next one.

6- Now I found the Gallery, and along comes another list of pet-peeves:

* There is no way to launch the site the company created. I am searching for web devs, not hand-made rugs. I am not going to navigate away from the web-site of a good web company and decide to go shopping for exotic makeup. My mind is completely stressed and razor-focused on finding someone. Please let me launch the site -- even if it is "target: blank" if you think that I am too stupid to know how to use the back button -- so I don't have to go to google and guess which site you created.

* Fine, the company has let me see the site they proudly created, but two issues: Link to a site that no longer exists or link to a site that looks drastically different than the screen shot supplied by the company. I can understand if I was on page 15 of the gallery, but when the first 3 sites linked have the above issues, I am beginning to wonder what is happening. The company created a great site that failed or the company created a site the client isn't satisfied with so the client went somewhere else? This is all confusion and shows me the company doesn't pay attention to either their own Top 3 Clients or their own site, so "no."

* Mis-categorization: "Dynamic" != "Easily Confused with Static HTML." Yeah sure, I'll assume the dev team hard-coded PHP Include files and mod_rewrite rules for pretty URL's. If I can create something similar in Drupal in 1/2 a day, it's not "dynamic."

* Mis-categorization: "Dynamic" != "HTML." I know how to press Ctrl-u, and when I don't see a single .js file or an external stylesheet, I'm questioning your honesty.

* Mis-categorization: "E-Commerce" != "Blog." Yes, she is promoting herself, yes, she is helping her populuarity and stuff like that, but is she actually selling anything but ad space if she's even selling that? No. Nothing. Please, keep the broad-sweeping definitions to a minimum. And while you're at it, please have at least one bona fide e-commerce site from a company that is selling stuff in the e-commerce section so I can look at it.

7 - Now I'm at the site. Basically, I want to know three things: Did the company use a pre-built CMs, does the code look like something that was coded in the past 3 years, and is the site secure?

* The going trend today seems like Magento, Magento, Magento, and if all else fails: Magento. I'm not particularly religious, and I don't really know or care what CMS or other pre-built items the company uses. I'll come back to this one later.

* I know a few checks for security, but I'm only going to use one of them. If the Magento site tosses an ugly error after this check, I have to wonder what the heck happened. Isn't Magento supposed to be ultra-secure out of the box? Who screwed this up?

8- Ambiguous claims: "We've done work for XYZ company," or "XYZ uses ABC technology," or "Case Studies" for unlinked and un-named companies.

9- After deciding that 80% of the companies in Los Angeles have zero business at all building websites, I decide to call someone and here we go again (80% accurate transcription):

"Hello, I am calling bacause I need to update my company's website."

"Can I see you're current site?"

And the person sees the site: "Oh, you want a shopping cart."

"No, I don't."

"You want customer log-in and take credit-card orders!"

"No, I don't."

"You want PayPal!"

"No. I don't"

"You want to have JQuery?"

"No, I don't."

"You want HTML5 and CSS3?"

"I'm sorry, do you care at all about what I need?

"Yes, I do."

"Are you the secretary? Can I speak to someone in sales?"

"No, I'm the project manager here."

"You're ****ing kidding me. Can I speak to the people who are in charge of building sites please?"

"I am the person in charge. I'm the project manager. You'll love us."

"Really? Why is that?"

"We care about your needs."

"Really, from what I've told you so far, what do I need?"

"You need a shopping cart, JQuery, and CSS3, right?"

"No, I don't need any of that."

"Well, that's what we just discussed."

**********

As this is a learning experience, I have the following questions to resarch:

1- I don't think it matters which CMS / Framework / Programming Language (Religion) is adapted, as long as the functionality, speed, and usubility are intact. However, I am not sure if paying a company north of 60k for Magento is worthwhile. There is also the issue of enterprise solutions for Magento and (other frameworks?), and those do cost more money, so I have to know what is being bought / sold.

2- Continuing with #1: A few companies claim to hand-code the back-end in (pick the flavor) to ensure customization, security, and other odd things they mention. Is this accurate? Oddly, these companies tend to charge less than the pre-fab Magento / Drupal / Wordpress companies. I do question the honesty of this claim. They have to be refactoring from somewhere. Will this result in inextensible spaghetti code so that 2 years from now, my company is faced with the same situation? While the student programmer in me loves the concept of creating top-down / bottom-up from scratch, the practical side of me is concerned.

3- Money: How much of the money is going for the dev company's rent? Nice offices are grand, and the sales teams that I have contacted so far seem knowledgeable enough, but is 3x the money going to rent, executives, or quality coders?

4- One company strongly advised that if we were to set up a Magento site, anyone that comes in later has to be a Magento expert to code, enhance, and modify the look and feel of the new site. I know that some companies have Magento, and looking at the source, it is clear that someone had enhanced the site that was wholly unfamiliar on how code in XHTML 1.0 + XML Strict. Is this claim at all true, and if so, what are the security, enhancement, etc, implications of this? If the company hires someone in-house for maintenance, what will happen?

5- Continuing #4: Not sure what to make of this claim. One Magento site I checked shows 771 errors and 11554 warnings. Unfortunately, this information isn't helpful. The company who made claim #4 uses the HTML5 doctype in the Magento sites. Doesn't validate, though the errors seem esoteric so it is safe to assume they are within the parameters of "valid," whatever that means these days.

6- What is reasonable in regards to Discovery Phase?

* A company demads $X,000 for discovery before they are willing to offer a project plan with pricing. Good/ Bad/ Meh?

* Should I demand a rough quote, in writing up-front, free of charge? Somehow this doesn't sound viable.

********

What do I have to do to ensure quality of site, meeting deadlines, and helping the dev house?

Company I work wants the devs to be "the experts" and tell us what we need. I feel this will create too much guess work and cause too many errors and poor results. Since most companies immediately default to generic "E-Commerce Solutions," it is apparent that I have to do a lot of the leg-work myself. Blogs from "reputable" companies all suggest that the client should have some vision of what they need. Begin working on:

* A simple site-map. How will the users navigate, and what sort of categories can the company focus on?

* Compile everything that I want. Unfortunately, it is "what I want" since communication between all arms of management is non-existent. I pretty much have to take full control.

* Think about functions that could exist, but may be, for the interem, hidden. This includes log-in and order creation. The difficulty is that certain aspect of order creation must be available, but the question is how much. Inquire about full functionality with the ability to switch functionality on and off.

* Compile a list of all the things that are needed and present (preferably) open-source solutions to various esoteric needs I can't expect the dev company to research or know about. Compile a list of needs from the back-end and ensure simple default changes on certain items. Offer examples where this was a major issue with screen shots of current site. Inquire about customer log-in requirements. Expected length of document: 20 to 40 pages.

* The company database should have some tie-in to the website for an important functionality. Certain companies flatly refuse to touch the current RDBMS while others are willing to look into it but haven't made a decision yet. Research and inquire if there can be an automated script for data extraction, conversion, and uploading. Worst-case scenario: someone (likely me), will have to manually extract, convert, and bulk-load once per day. Considering my short future at the company, this is unlikely a viable solution. Not sure how to present the information to management if the current database has to be completely redone. Already walking on egg-shells with this one and this is where it all can implode.

* Offer up simple, non-final, layouts of page ideas to demonstrate mandatory functionality and reference competitor websites for further clarification.

*Take screen shots of back-end to show issues that must be fixed and suggest defaults and other quick usability issues for maintenance and updating.

* Inquire about doing as much image manipulation in-house as possible. Offer to create a .csv of the full product line with descriptions, and image files for bulk-load.

* Be as clear as possible about what is needed.
I'm going to have a long week ahead of me.
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05-28-2012 , 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveT
I'm fully frustrated with the work I'm doing right now. I think reading too much here and other odd stuff has made me excessively paranoid about finding someone to do the company website. Of course, I'm somehow in charge of this garbage. I spent a few hours today collecting my thoughts and writing it all down. If I'm on the wrong track, let me know. Writing it out helps me to focus my thoughts and see the issue. Writing this also revealed to me a few ideas that I didn't notice.

Happy reading. If it's TL;DR, then don't read it. There's no summary. I do want to point out that web dev companies really make this whole process far harder than it has to be. Maybe if you are looking to build / expand / start your own, this will help you out.

I'm going to have a long week ahead of me.


Have you considered finding company websites similar to what you are looking for and contacting them to ask who developed their website and if they would recommend them? Recommendations are really the only way to find a decent web design company.
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05-28-2012 , 12:41 PM
Any of you guys on Geeklist (http://geekli.st)? I actually quite like it. Interesting to see what projects people have worked on.
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05-28-2012 , 06:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWooster
Have you considered finding company websites similar to what you are looking for and contacting them to ask who developed their website and if they would recommend them? Recommendations are really the only way to find a decent web design company.
This would be pretty uncomfortable. I wouldn't have any choice but to call our direct competitors and ask them.

There is one other thing though. I did whois search on certain companies and found that a few of them share the same IP address as some of our customers. This either indicates that our customers are owned by our competitor or it means that our customers have the same developer and are all on the same shared hosting plan. The second option is far more likely especially since most of these companies are all located within a few miles of each other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWooster
Any of you guys on Geeklist (http://geekli.st)? I actually quite like it. Interesting to see what projects people have worked on.
Not on this, but it looks like it would be a helpful resource.
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05-28-2012 , 07:10 PM
I'm going to totally whore out my company. We're not in LA, but we do work globally. I'm not a sales guy, but I can give you a contact number. Our website blows, but we do good work.

PM me if you're interested (PS, please don't ban me)
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-28-2012 , 07:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveT
This would be pretty uncomfortable. I wouldn't have any choice but to call our direct competitors and ask them.
I dont know what business you are in, but I dont really see a big issue with contacting competitors to ask them who built their site. They dont need to know who is asking.

Also, unless you are looking for something very specific, it doesnt need to be direct competitors, just websites that have good design.
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-28-2012 , 08:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWooster
I dont know what business you are in, but I dont really see a big issue with contacting competitors to ask them who built their site. They dont need to know who is asking.

Also, unless you are looking for something very specific, it doesnt need to be direct competitors, just websites that have good design.
Eh...

There is *one thing* that we need implemented that other companies have that is only partly implemented and I thought a lot about why this is the case. Imagine a function that should be available for all products, but in order to implement the function, each product must be manually loaded and the end-user has to do be able to do some manipulation with it.

One company recently came out that created the above service and sells it to everyone in the industry, and from what I have seen, the UI of each site that has it is drastically different and in many cases, impossible to use.

So, there's the following issues:

1- The company that created this program made it so that anyone can load it on the site, but it's not abstracted enough to be generalized, thus the companies that use this service have some products with the feature, but most of the products aren't available, thus the companies that have it don't have the time or knowledge to fully implement the program. Imagine a site has 1000 products in 7 colors each and when they first got this program, they had it available for 300 products in one color each. Something makes it too hard or too time-consuming to expand this into the full product line. After using the front-end myself, I believe I see where the problem lies.

2- There is what I think is a simple open-source solution to this issue. The open source program looks more like industry-standard UI than the paid-for service. The open-source solution also allows end-users to save as PDF, PNG and other formats, which may or may not be available on the paid service (I guess add $$$). The open-source solution also uses SVG, which is a huge plus.

3- The difficulty is determining exactly how to implement this program, and the paid-for program doesn't do a good job of creating a basic standard that everyone can model on. Solutions include:

* Drag-and-drop which I don't like.
* Simple link that talks to the back-end and loads the required photos from some photo file / database.

I believe all the above issues can be easily solved if the program is properly generalized and abstracted. Yes, the website maintainer will probably have to follow some instructions and open something scary, but I don't think the instructions will be too difficult. I think that the paid-for service was attempting to make it so that it was intuitive and easy for anyone to use it, but at a huge expense of fast implementation thus this is why this amazing and needed idea has yet to storm the industry. I believe that this is a huge first-move advantage for anyone who fully implements this service, and I believe it is worth the sacrifice in back-end GUI to ensure we are ahead of the curve on this, especially thinking that the current industry program doesn't seem to be working out for anyone anyways. Demand for this particular feature is very strong and it shows how bad the current solution on the market is if the only available option is struggling to get companies to use it.
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05-28-2012 , 08:43 PM
Seems like a killer feature with first mover advantage should be developed in house. I take it this project is something you really do not want to do?
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05-29-2012 , 02:12 AM
No, not something I want to do at all. If push came to shove, I would, but I would hope a semi-competent developer can do it. I also don't have the time.

And if I did it, the back-end would be for speed and efficiency, not usability for the non-coder, which is pretty much how everything I currently create functions. I put some thought into how something like this would be created. I'm thinking of creating it at home for giggles. The program might come in handy one day.
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05-29-2012 , 08:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daveT
And if I did it, the back-end would be for speed and efficiency, not usability for the non-coder
This just scares that crap out of me
** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD ** Quote
05-29-2012 , 09:03 AM
I'm finally hacking together my first rails app. Say I have a restaurant model and I want to give each restaurant a cuisine. What are the best practices here? I know I could just give Restaurant a string category attribute (column? field?), but that feels like poor design. Should I be creating a Cuisine model and then storing an id or string value for a cuisine object (are there built in functions to handle this?). What If I want Restaurant objects that can have to multiple cuisines. What's the best way to do that?
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05-29-2012 , 09:15 AM
MrWooster,

Site looks good (though I'm not sure I'd ever use it as I would be uncomfortable posting my session histories on the internet), but I do have a couple of suggestions:

- I think you can remove the header for each hand - there's no need to have "Poker Stars $3.32+$0.18 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players" repeated every hand (not to mention 3 lines of vertical space). I think you could put the blind sizes beside the stack sizes.

- For heads up, I don't think you need to include the (2 players) for postflop.

- Personally I find your current cards hard to read and would prefer something bigger that resembles actual cards.

- I would reorder the flops and hands so that the the cards are descending in value.

- I think you need less horizontal space between the comments and the actual hand (or more vertical space between each hand).

- I think you can add hand counts to the display filters.

- On a less nit picky note: I think you could add a list of hands along the side that just display a bit of information about them (pot size, who won, etc), which scroll you to the hand when clicked on.
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05-29-2012 , 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo
This just scares that crap out of me
+1 for 99% of cases that is the exact wrong philosophy
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05-29-2012 , 11:30 AM
Design is the most important thing. Building front end web-apps for speed and efficiency is a lot easier to justify imo
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05-29-2012 , 11:55 AM
Thanks for the feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5
(though I'm not sure I'd ever use it as I would be uncomfortable posting my session histories on the internet)
This is a fair enough point. One of the features I am working on is the ability to have 'private' sessions. These will only be accessible by designated users. The idea being that you post a session and only give access to your friends/coach etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5
- I think you can remove the header for each hand - there's no need to have "Poker Stars $3.32+$0.18 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t10/t20 Blinds - 2 players" repeated every hand (not to mention 3 lines of vertical space). I think you could put the blind sizes beside the stack sizes.

- For heads up, I don't think you need to include the (2 players) for postflop.
This is a product of the hand converter. My intention is to eventually implement a custom hand converter which would give me more control over how the hands are displayed but at the moment I use the deuces cracked hand converter. A lot of post processing goes on to determine extra information about the hands, but its not the prettiest code and I would rather wait until I have my own hand converter before making these changes.

Incidentally, if anyone knows of an open source hand converter please ping me

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5
- Personally I find your current cards hard to read and would prefer something bigger that resembles actual cards.
Personally, I have got used to the 'icon' style card which is very similar to the ones used on 2p2. Would not be too hard to add an option to change the cards though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5
- I would reorder the flops and hands so that the the cards are descending in value.
Interesting. I have not seen any converters that do this, but I can see why it would make the flop easier to read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5
- I think you need less horizontal space between the comments and the actual hand (or more vertical space between each hand).
In theory, the columns should resize to fit the screen size, but unfortunately css is not my forte. Will have a look at improving this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5
- I think you can add hand counts to the display filters.
Could you explain what you mean by this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5
- On a less nit picky note: I think you could add a list of hands along the side that just display a bit of information about them (pot size, who won, etc), which scroll you to the hand when clicked on.
Would really like to do this, but again, will have to wait for a decent hand converter.


Thanks again, really appreciate you taking the time to give some feedback
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05-29-2012 , 12:10 PM
@daveT from what you are saying, if you can get the feature implemented you will be way ahead. If you have the time, then you could always develop it in house and then sell it to other companies later on down the line.
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05-29-2012 , 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5
I know I could just give Restaurant a string category attribute (column? field?), but that feels like poor design.
agree. at the very least you want whatever Ruby folks use for an enum.

Quote:
Should I be creating a Cuisine model and then storing an id or string value for a cuisine object (are there built in functions to handle this?). What If I want Restaurant objects that can have to multiple cuisines. What's the best way to do that?
cuisine should be a model -- what else would it be? how else would you edit cuisines, create new cuisines, etc.

i'm confident rails has a way to connect models together. something with attributes? i distinctly remember being able to set up "has_one" and "has_many" relationships. Restaurants obviously Have Many Cuisines.

Last edited by tyler_cracker; 05-29-2012 at 01:05 PM. Reason: cuisine is hard to type. my fingers don't want to put the I after the U
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05-29-2012 , 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler_cracker
agree. at the very least you want whatever Ruby folks use for an enum.



cuisine should be a model -- what else would it be? how else would you edit cuisines, create new cuisines, etc.

i'm confident rails has a way to connect models together. something with attributes? i distinctly remember being able to set up "has_one" and "has_many" relationships. Restaurants obviously Have Many Cuisines.
Thanks, not sure why I was having trouble last night, but your post inspired me to use some new terms for a google search and came up with: http://guides.rubyonrails.org/association_basics.html which appears to contain everything I need.
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05-29-2012 , 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWooster
Incidentally, if anyone knows of an open source hand converter please ping me
there is this.. http://****************/apps/mediawik...itle=Main_Page


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWooster
Could you explain what you mean by this?
In your display filters show how many hands end in preflop, how many on the flop, etc just so the user can get a better grasp of the effect of selecting a filter.
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05-29-2012 , 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skier_5
there is this.. http://****************/apps/mediawik...itle=Main_Page


In your display filters show how many hands end in preflop, how many on the flop, etc just so the user can get a better grasp of the effect of selecting a filter.
Good idea regarding the filters Will take a look at the FPDB converter. I remember checking it out some time ago but havent had a look at it recently.
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05-29-2012 , 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrWooster
Good idea regarding the filters Will take a look at the FPDB converter. I remember checking it out some time ago but havent had a look at it recently.
We use fpdb as the backend for Pokeit. While it's good for parsing hands and putting them into a database, it doesn't give you a way to display them on a webpage out of the box. If you're looking to develop a custom look and don't mind writing some of it from scratch, fpdb might be the right choice. fpdb is always looking for new devs to contribute so if you do decide to check it out, just let me know if you have any questions. Also, you can always hop on the #fpdb IRC chat or shoot an email to the fpdb mailing list fpdb-main@lists.****************.
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05-29-2012 , 04:02 PM
Hey guys, anyone know if people who get your app through ad-hoc distribution can review it in the app store? I know in most cases you have to purchase it before you can review it.
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