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Old 12-15-2018, 10:40 AM   #36776
Larry Legend
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Goofy,

Personally, I am not a large company type of person at all, and think what ILPS is offering you sounds way better. You'll have the opportunity to make a much larger impact and likely deal with far less BS and a lot of flexibility once you are a respected contributor.

However, there is something to be said for post-DBAM opportunities and generally getting the experience at one, which is valuable.

Both paths are likely going to have different high points and hopefully not many low points, but ultimately the decision may mostly make sense to frame around what you want to be doing in 5-7 years from now.
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Old 12-15-2018, 10:53 AM   #36777
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** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by just_grindin View Post
1 kb seems pretty low. How many connections until it crashes?

Is it possible something else in the software is using the structure that holds on to the session and there's some sort of cascade effect to contact the client with the stale session information?


About 5,000 to crash on my 1 GB machine.It has to be something else. But the weird thing is the memory profiler is not showing anything else.
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Old 12-15-2018, 11:28 AM   #36778
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by goofyballer View Post
Okay, got updated DBAM offer today after I said "yeah that doesn't work for me" and gave them a hint about the kind of offer ILPS was giving me, and they upped it by ~45k.

Base: current salary minus 45k
Bonus: 20k/yr
RSU: 270k

So:
- ILPS: total comp is current salary + 50k cash + 50k private stock
- DBAM: total comp is current salary plus 43k cash (treating public stock as == cash)

With refreshers, if I can generally expect (though I don't know for sure how this works) refreshers to be roughly initial grant / 4:

Year 1: current + 43k
Year 2: current + 59k
Year 3: current + 76k
Year 4: current + 93k
Year 5: hopefully promoted already or get another huge grant or whatever

I have been reluctant to share exact details of the ILPS offer with DBAM, mostly because I didn't want them to simply match it and be done with it, but I guess given that ILPS is private, I'm not sure if DBAM would try to match the cash compensation (which they're now roughly near) or the total compensation (which would still be a decent jump, and would be awesome for them to match).

ILPS, of course, also offers refreshers, just with the caveat that it's more of the private stock which obv has a riskier value attached. That said, they are in an exciting area of tech and have a viable business (imo) ahead of them, so it's hard for me to weigh whether their RSUs will be worth $0 down the road or several times their current valuation.

Still, it feels hard for me to jump aboard the DBAM train with these two offers. After two years, cash compensation would be roughly equivalent, but I'd have an additional $100k in ILPS' private stock accrued, which (if it came to a liquidity event) would likely be worth a multiplier of that. And I'd say I'm moderately bullish on the work they're doing as a company. I came into this kinda wanting to pick DBAM, but they're kinda making it hard for me to want to pick them now.
Who did you like interviewing with more? Sounds like the money is close to a wash considering the public/private stuff, which one are you going to like working at more from what you know from the interview process?
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Old 12-15-2018, 11:32 AM   #36779
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craggoo View Post
I was browsing in a bit of downtime at work today while I was waiting for some junk to compile. My new company uses svn (unfortunately) so I've been googling a little bit on alternate vcs to git. I came upon this gem today. Quote from:

from a comment from


I never looked at bug fixing from that perspective. Head asplode.
That seems to assume you're finding bugs rather quickly isn't it?
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Old 12-15-2018, 12:20 PM   #36780
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

I don't get it, why would you branch off of the bugged commit to fix the bug? What advantage is it over branching master? You'll have to merge in master anyways. I'm confused.
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Old 12-15-2018, 12:44 PM   #36781
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

It seems to be treating code as a precious commodity that needs to have its history documented and preserved instead of as a tool that should be tossed aside as soon as something better comes along.
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Old 12-15-2018, 12:51 PM   #36782
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Goofy, to me reading your posts it feels like you're more into the private one. Maybe you disagree but I don't think you need to count up every penny to make this decision, it seems like you're leaning already, I say go with it
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Old 12-15-2018, 12:53 PM   #36783
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** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

You can have good history even if you donít branch off that way, thatís just weird. And assuming your testing is good, bugs will be caught relatively fast on commits to master... there shouldnt be many commits really far away from head with a bug
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Old 12-15-2018, 01:52 PM   #36784
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Goofy, one thing I'll add is that if you're choosing ILPS over DBAM mostly based on compensation that puts you in a super strong negotiating position with DBAM.

The worst they can do is rescind your offer (which is super unlikely) or they try to call your "bluff" and say they won't go higher - in which case you just go with ILPS anyway.

The negotiating line of "I'd really like to work with you guys, but it just doesn't make sense financially" is super duper strong when you're completely serious.

Edit: Also, if DBAM just won't move on salary/RSUs, you can totally make your point that long term their package becomes competitive but they need a significant up front signing bonus to make it competitive with your other offer.
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Old 12-15-2018, 02:24 PM   #36785
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmakin View Post
You can have good history even if you donít branch off that way, thatís just weird. And assuming your testing is good, bugs will be caught relatively fast on commits to master... there shouldnt be many commits really far away from head with a bug
IME no, this is not true. It is very common to find bugs that are years old, especially if they are not commonly triggered. Or, it's common to have bugs that were discovered years ago but not fixed because their priority is low or their impact is low. It's quite likely that literally every piece of software you use on a daily basis has 10-100 bugs that are years old.
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Old 12-15-2018, 02:45 PM   #36786
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by jjshabado View Post
Goofy, one thing I'll add is that if you're choosing ILPS over DBAM mostly based on compensation that puts you in a super strong negotiating position with DBAM...


The negotiating line of "I'd really like to work with you guys, but it just doesn't make sense financially" is super duper strong when you're completely serious.
100% this. If you'd pick them if they reached some number, just tell them the number. You're in a position where you should be ranking sort of compensation-neutral first and then negotiating on that basis.

There's no need to give them details of the competitive offer which are, in many ways just a distraction (e.g. you don't need them to try to change your mind about the relative value of public vs. private stock, opportunities etc.), just the point at which you'd be happy to accept.
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Old 12-15-2018, 04:20 PM   #36787
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
Who did you like interviewing with more? Sounds like the money is close to a wash considering the public/private stuff, which one are you going to like working at more from what you know from the interview process?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJo336 View Post
Goofy, to me reading your posts it feels like you're more into the private one. Maybe you disagree but I don't think you need to count up every penny to make this decision, it seems like you're leaning already, I say go with it
I think PJo is right that I'm leaning ILPS. But even if I know that for sure, it's worth noting that this was their initial offer to me, so I should always try to get 10-20% more, it's not like they just offered me the max they're willing to pay from the start.

But I need to give them a reason to go higher. For DBAM, giving them a reason is easy, their offer sucked compared to their competition.


One other wrinkle about negotiating with DBAM:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sholar View Post
100% this. If you'd pick them if they reached some number, just tell them the number. You're in a position where you should be ranking sort of compensation-neutral first and then negotiating on that basis.
The fact that I'm still on ILPS' initial offer complicates this a little. There's a number where I'd be happy to join DBAM given the current other offer on the table, but obviously ILPS would counter-offer if I was ready to turn them down.
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Old 12-15-2018, 06:23 PM   #36788
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** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Remember that private company doesnít know your relative preferences without compensation being a factor. So itís quite possible that theyíd need to pay you significantly more than DBAM to win you over (the D in DBAM is presumably there for a reason). At the very least you should tell private co that your considering both offers and while there are many factors you want to know if this is the best they can offer compensation wise.

Thatís a very low risk and relatively friendly move that should at least get you some movement north in their offer even if it doesnít maximize the offer they give you (and I suspect most of us arenít willing to do the things you need to do to truly negotiate to maximum effectiveness).

Edit: And it really feels like you should be blunt with DBAM because there seems to be very little risk. Their offer is legitimately low (from what I can tell and your other offer) and if itís so low that itís a big negative for you tell them and tell them it needs to go up quite a bit. Doesnít need to be confrontational just more matter of fact in this case. Still talk about how excited you are about the company, yadda, yadda, yadda.
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:11 PM   #36789
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

I'm just going to have you guys do my correspondence for me next negotiation
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Old 12-15-2018, 07:38 PM   #36790
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Mad Libs!
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Old 12-15-2018, 09:16 PM   #36791
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJo336 View Post
I'm just going to have you guys do my correspondence for me next negotiation


Itís always easier not being directly involved because you donít have the irrational fear that theyíll hate you or suddenly tell you **** off.
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Old 12-15-2018, 09:37 PM   #36792
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Goofy if DBAM is a FAANG - I can confirm you will be immediately sought after at any startup and probably be able to command a high salary. They love to brag about how many ex-FAANGs they have. They did it to me in interviews. If it's a second level fang like Twitter or something - I assume the effect is still there but not as pronounced.
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Old Yesterday, 12:03 AM   #36793
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sholar View Post
There's no need to give them details of the competitive offer which are, in many ways just a distraction (e.g. you don't need them to try to change your mind about the relative value of public vs. private stock, opportunities etc.), just the point at which you'd be happy to accept.
I'm wondering if it's possible to make them understand this without disclosing the ILPS offer details, after the way this last round of negotiation went.

After their initial low offer, I sent a counter-offer and talked in generalities about the ILPS offer, and suggested numbers that I think would compete with the ILPS offer, while pointing out that this proposed offer was still less than the total value of the ILPS offer (again, without explicitly telling them the numbers).

And yet, their RSU figure (270k) in the newest offer was exactly halfway between the original (140k) and my suggestion (400k).

So that made me feel like if I just give them a number and say "this is what I want", they will assume I'm just negotiating high like we're in a movie and always try to split the difference. But if I actually tell them the details of what they're up against, maybe that will wake their asses up.
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Old Yesterday, 03:10 PM   #36794
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

(I again agree with jjshabado's latest comments.)

I think saying "<company name> offered me X" is always a mistake unless the companies are playing the same game e.g. two DBAMs for example. Otherwise, they response is going to be to explain to you why a DBAM and an ILPS are different (I forgot what some of the letters there mean other that it being private i.e. size and status).

I do think saying "I really like you guys but I'm just seeing better offers elsewhere in the market and it's not particularly close. I'd need total comp around $X and a minimum base salary of $Y for this to really make sense" is fine. You can add whatever charm you like to that, but being coy won't help you.

The point is to make it clear that you are in the situation of willing to accept immediately or walk away. You only get to do that one company at a time -- use it when it's true. Dispel the doubt that they might have that you're just saying a big number because you can but aren't [1] really interested [2] willing to walk away.

In particular this is the "easy" side of jjshabado's "I suspect most of us aren’t willing to do the things you need to do to truly negotiate to maximum effectiveness". You get pretty close to the best possible offer without having to do anything that would feel slimy, lie, etc.
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Old Today, 01:57 AM   #36795
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Installed python, flask, node, mariadb, on new machine, got a new project started where a react frontend queries and then renders based on the jsonified dictionary returned from the a python/flask backend/api, possibly even a restful api, and its database queries.

Not a bad Sunday. Where's my DBAM offer?
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Old Today, 02:16 AM   #36796
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **



True story, in my ILPS interview I showed one of my interviewers the React Native app I made on my phone to track my craft beer inventory and he was moderately impressed with it.
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