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Online Bootcamp or Physical Classroom? Online Bootcamp or Physical Classroom?

03-22-2016 , 10:01 PM
I'm in your city. A million jobs out there for even entry level front end developers. Learn everything you can in whatever way works best for you and you could probably have enough knowledge to get a contract job making $60-80k in 3-6 months. Don't waste money and time on school. If front end isn't your thing learn spring or .net mvc and you'll be fine.
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03-22-2016 , 10:13 PM
Whatever you do, listen to guys in the same boat as you, but ahead of you a year or two.

I really try not to give too much advice in threads like these because I started almost 20 years ago, and therefore I don't really know **** about anything but have the feeling that I do, if you know what I mean. So I mostly it on my hands. Also, I entered the work force in a particular way but I don't even have any way of knowing if that was the best way or even a good way.

So just try to find people like you, see how **** it working out for them, and go from there.

There's an awful lot of free material out there. I don't know anything about treehouse but $25/mo sounds like a lot unless it's pretty good. I paid less than that to learn another (spoken) language.
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03-22-2016 , 11:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grue
I'm in your city. A million jobs out there for even entry level front end developers. Learn everything you can in whatever way works best for you and you could probably have enough knowledge to get a contract job making $60-80k in 3-6 months. Don't waste money and time on school. If front end isn't your thing learn spring or .net mvc and you'll be fine.
we are learning spring. good to hear that it is still useful. havent seen it mentioned here so i was thinking it may be outdate.
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03-23-2016 , 05:05 AM
Thanks for the responses, appreciate it.
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03-23-2016 , 11:58 AM
Pluralsight and Lynda.com are supposed to be really good resources, paid I think. Never used them before.

Odin Project will take you through several Codecademy tracks, like the html and css ones, Ruby, and maybe jQuery.

If you don't have much computer or CS experience, check out the Stanford or Harvard online courses people mention frequently, csx50 or whatever it is.

If you want a degree, maybe check out Western Governor's University. Some of the course requirements are wonky for a software focus, like CompTIA A+, but you are supposed to be able to accelerate your degree and do as many credits per six month semester as you can. It's regionally accredited, which is the non-fake accrediting. National accreditation is for scam schools, as backwards as that sounds.
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03-24-2016 , 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodle Wazlib
If you want a degree, maybe check out Western Governor's University. Some of the course requirements are wonky for a software focus, like CompTIA A+, but you are supposed to be able to accelerate your degree and do as many credits per six month semester as you can. It's regionally accredited, which is the non-fake accrediting. National accreditation is for scam schools, as backwards as that sounds.
Western Governor's University can be a great option if it fits you. They're not for profit, and regionally accredited. Tuition is payed by semester instead of per credit, so you can save a ton money by pumping out work as fast as you can. The guys at the techexams forums are pretty into that school so if you're interested you could ask around there. Though they seem to be much more focused Networks/Security and less on programming.

I'll be starting at WGU soon myself, I'm just not sure whether to go for Software Development or for Security. People tell you to find what you enjoy and study that, though with zero experience its tough to even know what you'll like.
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03-24-2016 , 10:53 AM
AFter couple days of research I think I made my decision. I'll go with CS over SE. Seems like CS offer pretty much same thing as SE offer, open even more door and take less time. Downaide is you are not considered an ''official engineer''.

But I was looking at job like Data Scientist and it seems very interesting job.
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03-25-2016 , 02:36 PM
Why students are throwing tons of money at a program that won’t give them a college degree

Spoiler:
Brian O’Neill has been trying to hire a developer at Philly-based tech company Monetate. He’s used to seeing resumes from “bootcampers,” or graduates of computer coding “bootcamp” programs. He’s also used to turning them down for such an advanced job.

Typically, he gives them a technical test during the interview. “They get through the easy programming exercises,” he says, “And they can’t complete the rest.” About halfway through, they drop off. They can’t seem to pass. If he hires them at all, it'll usually be for low-level positions.

O’Neill is witnessing one of the biggest booms in the job market right now: an influx of coders graduating from three- to six-month coding crunch programs in lieu of traditional four-year Computer Science degree programs. These for-profit programs, non-accredited and operating without much regulation, have been cropping up in response to a swelling market demand for STEM workers. They vary in quality, but most bootcamps promise steady, high-paying work upon graduation, prompting aspiring coders to invest anywhere from $10,000 to $20,000 of personal money to enroll. (Far less expensive, of course, than a full-fledged college program, where the out-of-state cost can average $38,239 a year, or $152,956 for four years. )

Now, colleges and universities are teaming up with these private schools, or rolling out their own bootcamp-style programs to offer accelerated coding workshops to their students. Northeastern, UPenn, and Rutgers have announced in-house bootcamps in the couple of months, while Lynn University and Concordia University have paired with programs like General Assembly and The Software Craftsmanship Guild. It’s a response to the tremendous growth in bootcamp enrollment, which increased by 138 percent from 2014 to 2015, compared to more modest growth in traditional Computer Science degrees (14 percent from 2013 to 2014). The demand is clear. But should universities be borrowing bootcamp tactics?

Longtime tech recruiter Dave Fecak is worried about the push towards fast-paced, truncated coding programs. “We as a nation, as we talk about the STEM shortage, we’re fostering a gold rush mentality that leads to these bootcamps with the promise of employment, promise of strong employment with strong demand and stability and a lot of money,” he said. “And a lot of the people that may get coerced into signing up for these bootcamps may end up with a lot of debt and not a lot of job offers.” He likens the trend to throwing bodies at the problem rather than addressing the industry’s real need for highly skilled developers.

O’Neill, who is Principal Architect at Monetate, agrees. He’s skeptical of bootcamper applicants and is more inclined to hire four-year CS degree graduates, especially for the most in-demand positions: “full stack” developers who possess a range of coding skills. He compares the skillsets of bootcampers to performing auto repair on a car, versus the kind of large-scale, architectural skills of your standard CS degree holder, who can do everything from small repairs to making deep structural changes. “You emerge from a bootcamp fit to do an oil change, but not design a car,” he said.

A typical four-year CS degree, will require students to study theoretical principles of programming on top of straight coding skills. Bootcamps, on the other hand, focus on programming alone, with an emphasis on in-demand languages in popular sectors like app development, functioning more like vocational school.

The universities adopting the bootcamp model are incorporating them in different ways. Lynn University, who paired with General Assembly, provides a “study abroad” style program, offering students a semester’s worth of credits for attending the 16-week bootcamp. Horizons, the bootcamp that has paired with UPenn, offers either summer or semester courses for college credit. Both come at a steep price, around $14,000 per semester for tuition alone. This is on top of the cost of a four-year college degree.

But Anupam Joshi sees the immediate benefits of these programs. He’s Chair of Computer Science and Electrical Engineering at the University of Maryland, Baltimore County, which doesn’t currently have plans to incorporate bootcamp style programs into its CS department (though the university does have a “training center” that offers vocational services, including coding). But he appreciates the bootcamps' quick adaptability to industry fads and the wider scope of needs they fill amidst the student body. “Bootcamps are good for someone who wants to get an entry level job,” he said of the promotion of coding over theory. “It’s like every other trade.”

Most bootcamps use this as their selling point, saying the tuition is a small price considering the ample opportunity for high-paying jobs upon completion of the program. The programs are also more skills-focused, especially for students who might find the regular CS degrees overly theoretical. Many boast extremely high hire rates upwards of 90 percent and salaries from $70,000 to $100,000. The data on the accuracy of these claims is hazy, especially as coding bootcamps proliferate with increasing demand. There are reports that coding bootcamps hire their own alums as teaching assistants and eventually teachers to keep their hire rates looking good. That’s one advantage of these bootcamps affiliating themselves with different universities -- they’re getting paired with a trustworthy name and, hopefully for incoming students, they’ll be held to stricter standards.

Joshi is less concerned with bootcampers finding that initial job -- he says demand is high enough that they probably will -- than where those bootcampers will wind up in a few years. “How far can these people go in their careers, or will they have problems when two, three years from now, the specific set of tools and technology they learned at bootcamp will change? They don’t have the fundamentals to pick up a new set of tools and technologies. Will they be bootcamping every 3 years? That’s an open question right now.”

Tech recruiter Fecak echos this sentiment. “I think there is a possibility that the market will get flooded with applicants who have a false expectation of their qualifications,” he said. “You can have thousands of thousands of people graduating these programs with the thought that they’re going to be able to pass these advanced technical interviews, and they might not be able to. What is that gonna do? It’s gonna create a deeper stigma around the bootcamps that will make it difficult even for the qualified people to graduate.”

O’Neill of Monetate also added that the bootcampers are at risk of their marketable skills becoming increasingly cheapened. “The same skillset that a lot of people are picking up out of bootcamps are the same skillset that can easily be outsourced or offshored,” he said. “The people who are gonna be developing intellectual property, platforms itself, the ones you want to be at the core to your company. The kind of skillsets that are developing on the peripheral are the sort of stuff you can easily outsource or you’re at least looking for the cheapest labor you can to accomplish that task.” He’s worried that bootcampers are being sold a vision where they are filling the need for highly skilled developers that is just not true.

He brings the oil changer versus car designer metaphor one more time. “Unfortunately, many companies are also trying to outsource and/or offshore their oil changes. And regardless, the industry will always need people capable of designing cars, or better yet figuring out the next mode of transportation.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ollege-degree/
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03-25-2016 , 03:35 PM
There is so much conflicting information on the subject.
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03-25-2016 , 03:57 PM
If you cant get a job after bootcamp just create your own coding school. Solved.
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03-25-2016 , 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaomai888
If you cant get a job after bootcamp just create your own coding school. Solved.
If you can't win anymore at poker, become a coach! lol.
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03-25-2016 , 06:15 PM
Interesting article. The last four paragraphs sum up my main concerns with bootcamps.

Re: the idea that skills learned in a bootcamp will quickly become outdated, and the bootcamper will lack the fundamentals to learn whatever new, emerging technologies.
- although I can see why someone with a traditional CS education would be better equipped to keep up with technological advances, the concern expressed in this article seems a bit overstated; with an abundance of resources available online and elsewhere, and the trend towards resources becoming more user-friendly, will it really be so difficult for any reasonably intelligent individual to maintain employability in the industry?

From my noob perspective, the commoditization of basic coding skills and the increasing outsourcing/offshoring of entry-level programming positions seems like a far greater concern to bootcampers. But, if a bootcamp can get someone a head-start in the industry, and they are then able to begin building skills and experience from that foundation (as discussed in the previous paragraph), maybe it is possible to move into positions slightly beyond those that are disappearing due to outsourcing/offshoring?
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03-26-2016 , 12:17 AM
Yea the part about bootcamp grads being screwed in 3 years because the dominant programming languages and frameworks change is ludicrous.

There may be some opportunities now and in the near future for companies to save a boatload on labor by hiring desperate bootcamp grads at cheaper rates. Basically identifying a market inefficiency (employer prejudice against all bootcamp grads) and exploiting it. In most cases there's unlikely to be a large difference in productivity between a new hire CS grad and a solid bootcamp grad.
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03-26-2016 , 12:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RustyBrooks
2nd note: The unix epoch is midnight on Jan 1, 1970 and unix time is just seconds since that instant.
As far as I can tell this is either a trick question (IEEE doubles can't represent 0.001) or you need more information about how this "double precision variable" works. Is that correct?
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03-26-2016 , 01:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eaglesfaan
Western Governor's University can be a great option if it fits you. They're not for profit, and regionally accredited. Tuition is payed by semester instead of per credit, so you can save a ton money by pumping out work as fast as you can. The guys at the techexams forums are pretty into that school so if you're interested you could ask around there. Though they seem to be much more focused Networks/Security and less on programming.

I'll be starting at WGU soon myself, I'm just not sure whether to go for Software Development or for Security. People tell you to find what you enjoy and study that, though with zero experience its tough to even know what you'll like.
Have spent the last hour reading about WGU, definitely is intriguing. If there is anyone out there lurking this thread with WGU experience in the "software development" program your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
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03-26-2016 , 06:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baltimore Jones
In most cases there's unlikely to be a large difference in productivity between a new hire CS grad and a solid bootcamp grad.
Well, at least a bootcamp grad is very unlikely to have gone 1-2 years without writing a single LoC, so there's that.
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03-26-2016 , 09:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mossberg
Interesting article. The last four paragraphs sum up my main concerns with bootcamps.

Re: the idea that skills learned in a bootcamp will quickly become outdated, and the bootcamper will lack the fundamentals to learn whatever new, emerging technologies.
- although I can see why someone with a traditional CS education would be better equipped to keep up with technological advances, the concern expressed in this article seems a bit overstated; with an abundance of resources available online and elsewhere, and the trend towards resources becoming more user-friendly, will it really be so difficult for any reasonably intelligent individual to maintain employability in the industry?

From my noob perspective, the commoditization of basic coding skills and the increasing outsourcing/offshoring of entry-level programming positions seems like a far greater concern to bootcampers. But, if a bootcamp can get someone a head-start in the industry, and they are then able to begin building skills and experience from that foundation (as discussed in the previous paragraph), maybe it is possible to move into positions slightly beyond those that are disappearing due to outsourcing/offshoring?
That part seemed rediculous. They are claiming that ppl who learned how to program and develop in a short period of time will not be able to learn a new skill set.

And what makes cs grads more capable of learning new technologies?
Online Bootcamp or Physical Classroom? Quote
03-26-2016 , 09:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mossberg
Re: the idea that skills learned in a bootcamp will quickly become outdated, and the bootcamper will lack the fundamentals to learn whatever new, emerging technologies.
- although I can see why someone with a traditional CS education would be better equipped to keep up with technological advances, the concern expressed in this article seems a bit overstated; with an abundance of resources available online and elsewhere, and the trend towards resources becoming more user-friendly, will it really be so difficult for any reasonably intelligent individual to maintain employability in the industry?
Yeah this is absurd - being able to keep up is much more about who you are than where you came from. Learning new technologies is much more like what you go through at bootcamps than at CS classes too.
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03-26-2016 , 10:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor
That part seemed rediculous. They are claiming that ppl who learned how to program and develop in a short period of time will not be able to learn a new skill set.

And what makes cs grads more capable of learning new technologies?
Nothing. It's ludicrous at face value.

Part of what they claim to teach at boot camps is how to think and learn like an engineer. Having gone through two years of CS in college, I can assure you that "figuring out new technologies or how to stay current" was never part of any course. And since that is a lot of what this industry is about, it seems a rather monumental failing.

Being able to learn when someone points you to a thing is nice, but you need to be able to learn how to learn things on your own, and afaik that doesn't come from college. I'll hopefully know soon enough if bootcamps are good at that.
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03-26-2016 , 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor
And what makes cs grads more capable of learning new technologies?
Maybe my statement was untrue. I have no CS background short of my experience in CS50x. I'll defer to the more knowledgeable/experienced posters on this matter
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03-26-2016 , 12:15 PM
I mean, learning about pointers in c++ made learning and understanding references in Java easier, but that's all I can think of. All the rest was just very slowly taught stuff that could be taught and practiced a lot faster. It just isn't, because tradition.
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03-26-2016 , 03:33 PM
I already had to learn different technologies btw, AA teaches Ruby and Rails and my company is Python and custom-ish frameworks.
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03-26-2016 , 03:48 PM
And you failed miserably because bootcamps are a tool of the devil and not a prim and proper education, right?

Be forewarned, good sir, any response but an ardent "yes" will nigh fling the monocle from mine eye, accompanied with much pearl clutching and fits of the vapors.
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03-26-2016 , 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noodle Wazlib
And you failed miserably because bootcamps are a tool of the devil and not a prim and proper education, right?

Be forewarned, good sir, any response but an ardent "yes" will nigh fling the monocle from mine eye, accompanied with much pearl clutching and fits of the vapors.
I will fetch you a sherry to rid yourself of the frightful vapors.
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03-26-2016 , 09:59 PM
Yeah that part made little sense to me because like all the languages are basically similar just different syntax. Much easier to learn second language than first.
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