Seems like the consensus is that it is a nuisance but the job market is so massive it doesn't really matter. I have heard that while companies can hire people in India or w/e to do their software development, it is standard for them to take 30 times longer (literally) to create the same software as an American team. Generally, they are much poorer programmers. This is a case of you get what you pay for. **** salary, **** software and I am pretty sure companies have caught on to that at this point.

That does make a lot of sense. Though I would think the cost savings would override the aspect of poor programming. As in pay for cheap programming to do 90% of the grunt work and then bring in American programmers for the last 10%.

It does not work like that.

if 90% of a program is poorly written, it's getting rewritten from the ground up. That costs more money than if you just skip the ****ty code monkeys in the first place

I see, well that's a relief that Indian programmers haven't taken over. I'm seriously contemplating a career change into programming or networking. My current field, accounting is basically if you're not big 4 or know someone on the inside, you're pretty excluded from the highly desirable jobs. For programming, it's basically do you know x language and working with y software? Great! At least that's the sense I get.

Look into the better bootcamps, App Academy and Hack Reactor being the only two I'm "sure" of. There are lots more, but because there are so many now that are churning out entry-level developers (entry-level developers in theory at least) I don't know if it's worthwhile to go to one of the less well-regarded schools.

I've heard these are super intensive and you're at the campus 80 hrs a week for 2 months, but I also hear a lot of these spots are super competitive and the graduates have a very high placement rate with average pay in the 70k-80k range, depending on where they go.

First off, Indian programmers are a large portion of developers in the Bay Area and other hot spots so if you have some kind of racial hatred going on that isn't going to bode well for you.

Second, you most definitely do not need to "know someone" in accounting to get a desirable job. Programming has it's fair share of office politics as well and just like in any industry, networking will do you a world of good. You don't seem to be going into this with the right mindset at all. Do you even like programming? Are you good at it? Have you taken any classes?

I've seen many people like you. A little hardship at your current job and you blame it on external factors and then try to run away to a more "merit based" industry with the idea that you will somehow excel in this although there is no actual evidence to prove that.

One, where do you get this sense of racism? I was asking about outsourcing to India. None of the other posters sensed racism from my posts, maybe you should read the entire thread first.

Two, I've seen many job postings stating Big 4 exp / mid tier firm exp required and I've worked with numerous recruiters as well that pretty much say the same thing. Are you an accountant? And you just contradicted yourself as networking helps you get to know people to get in a certain job/place right? So I am right with that regard. I'm sure you know a few people that never worked in Big 4, but that's more the exception rather than the rule. Networking is important, but my sense in Comp Sci fields is that knowledge and skills are more important, not who you know or what school/previous jobs you had. Again, read the entire thread, I took AP Comp Sci I & II back in high school and passed both tests. I'm also currently a fully licensed CPA. I would like to think I'd be proficient but I haven't taken a comp sci class since high school, but the OP of this thread didn't take any classes at all when he started this thread and now seems to be doing very well.

Three, so you take one post and you know my life story and my personality, just like you did in my first point. Stop assuming and deducting and get off your high horse. Either contribute with your experience or GTFO.

The people from India/people in India confusion was pretty lol

Yea I graduated with a masters in accounting and worked for BDO (5th largest) before peacing out after 2 weeks on the job to pursue poker. I can echo the sentiment that the accounting profession is a true waste of life, driven largely by office politics where you are chained to a desk for 80-100 billable hours (aka 100 hours week min) for a total of 5-6 months of busy season work (4 in spring, 2 in the fall). Once I saw that the average accountant stuck around for no longer than 1 to 1.5 years at a time, I was out. I have been teaching myself programming the past few months as I see online poker for me ending by mid/late 2015 and I think the job you can land in programming is much more desirable than then jobs you can land in accounting.

What is everyone's thoughts on the BS program vs Masters at Depaul, both are offered online now.

I'm sort of curious if a second bachelors would be more robust than a graduate program. Obviously people with no undergraduate degree have only 1 choice.

http://www.cdm.depaul.edu/academics/...erScience.aspx

The Master's makes more sense if you already have a Bachelor's. The Bachelor's will likely involve a lot of extraneous courses irrelevant to what you're trying to accomplish, and a lot of the Master's courses are the same as upper-level undergrad courses (but supposedly graded harder...which they're not). Also, you really should aim to work at some point during the program, which the Master's is more conducive for.

In Systems I now, I'm glad I decided to take just 1 course working full time.

I have seen a fair amount of debate on the net about people thinking that a 2nd bachelors is better and I honestly cannot understand why they think that. Most of the arguments I have seen for it don't stand up to critical thought, but I still see them kinda often. I am pretty sure if I tried a 2nd bachelors at DePaul it would include me having to satisfy weird requirements like classes that would have me exploring Chicago. The masters program is 19 classes all that are in your major. There's no wasted time or money. There's also whatever added value of having a master's level degree, which may or may not be much.

I'm about 2/3 done with my MS in CS after getting my BS in OR in 2006. every semester, I start off being intimidated by the prerequisites, by the syllabus, and by all the smart looking people in my classes. then I just out-work and out-study people and have done much, much better than I thought I could have to this point. many of my classmates are lazy, apathetic, check facebook/twitch/online shopping during class, copy each other's homework, and expect TAs/professors to spoon-feed them answers. I go to the same school I got my bachelor's from, and the quality of student in grad school is significantly lower than undergrad.

my advice for anyone debating it is if the school is willing to admit you without a CS bachelor's, then just jump into it and do it. bachelor's in CS is useful, but by no means is it essential to be successful. passion and hard work are much more important.

Waiting for a response for the same program in the same area next Fall. How competitive are the internships? Have heard there are plenty of opportunities to go around.

Congrats on crushing

It really depends on where you are located and what's available to you. For example, in my area, there are two universities available.

University A:
Offers master's program, relatively easy to get in. No letter of recs or GRE needed. Catered for people without a technical Bachelors. Cheaper tuition. Students from there are frustrated with their computer science program.

University B:
Offers a second bachelors. More well known school and the big 4 recruit there. They have a master's program however it's competitive to get in. You will need research experience and letter of recs. Tuition is double of University A.

A lot of people will say that a Master's > Bachelor's which I believe is a misnomer. Maybe if you work for a government agency where they use that to justify your pay grade. But other than that, there is not much difference. Choose whatever is more beneficial for your career.

For me, University B is an easier choice. I will be surrounded with a higher caliber of students and I have an advantage of meeting recruiters from bigger companies which will lead to better internships which leads to a better start in my career.

A lot people will disagree with me here and will offer anecdotal evidence for the contrary, however the truth is still there, guys who went to University A are going to have less doors available than University B.

When looking for the school, check out the college job boards to get a good idea of who recruiters there. In addition ask the students what they think about the program.

same exact program? if you end up enrolling definitely shoot me a PM and I can help you pick out courses/professors.

yeah I haven't known anyone to have much of a problem securing a job or internship. seems like quite a few got software engineering jobs at google, facebook, etc., if that's your thing. I'm biased but I think a CS degree is very marketable for a wide range of positions.

I haven't seen a comprehensive list of grad school acceptance rates, but aren't admissions generally more lenient for comparable programs? if you get into school B for undergrad, you can almost certainly get into a comparable (or even better) school for a graduate program.

I've never heard of someone having 2 bachelors degrees. seems like a big waste of time and money. if someone spends 8 years in school full-time, they had better be close to a phd

The degree itself doesn't even matter that much in the long run. I totally understand the anxiety and over-analysis that goes into a decision like this--you can probably get a sense for it in most of my early posts. But at the end of the day it's going to come down to your desire to learn and your dedication to improve.

My internship was filled with kids from MIT, Harvard, Cal Tech, and Carnegie Mellon, yet I still landed the same internship as them. Some of them were freakishly talented, and I'll never be at their level. But, many of them didn't try that hard. You could tell that they're just going through the motions of "What they're supposed to do," and I believe that you can catch up to them. You won't go through the motions--you'll come up with side projects, take free courses, and watch hundreds of YouTube videos about concepts that confuse you. And you won't just wait until the summer to try to get an internship--you'll start trying to get one after you finish your first two courses.

At the end of the day it's about what you can do. I've had more than 15 technical interviews along side people who went to way better schools than me; but most companies primarily care about how well you think on your feet, whether you'd be able to add more value than just doing what you're told (ie- taking iniative to improve things), your desire to learn and get better, and whether you'd be easy to work with.

I feel like I could go on forever about this subject. But the short point is, stop focusing on all of the unknowns and just get started somewhere. In the long run if you work hard and enjoy learning all this cool stuff, you'll probably end up at the same level regardless of where you go to school.

This is a terrific discussion.

@djsensei - well I don't know exactly what school you're in but if it's in OR and allows for non-tech undergrad MS CS bridging then it might very well be the same. Will def hit you up if going. Can't say the prospect of big name positions isn't enticing, even if just for a few years, but agree the biggest draw is its versatility.

@go_blue - just getting started somewhere is terrific advice - still, if one can just get started + get closer to a PhD (regardless if they intend to pursue one (you never really know anyway, things change)) that seems like the best route - as you said - school matters, but fire burns brighter.

Great points. I think a lot of people also forget that you don't necessarily need to get a masters or second bachelors to get your foot in the door. Employers are going to care about your skills first and foremost, and going to school is only one way to acquire those skills. There's treehouse, tuts, youtube, bootcamps, a million books, etc for self-study.

That's why there are so many programmers who don't even have a degree in computer science or anything related to it. I once met a guy who was a CTO and cofounder of a successful software company. He had a bachelors and masters in something totally unrelated and an unrelated job, before teaching himself how to code in his 30s.

I'm not saying that a bachelors or masters isn't worth it -- that depends on the individual and their unique situation. But it's definitely not the only way. If someone wanted to save money, I think a great option would be to spend a few hundred bucks on good books and subscription service libraries. If they spent 20 hours a week learning from this stuff, I'd argue they could get an entry-level programming job after 3 to 6 months. Even if the salary of that first job isn't great, they'd be getting paid to learn how to code and they would've saved a lot on their education. Besides, people usually learn more practical skills on the job than in school anyway.

wrong DC guy, but I think Dan is also pursuing something similar

by OR I meant operations research, not Oregon. I thought you knew where I went to school somehow and were applying to the same program (MS in CS at Columbia).

I think the fact that I randomly referred to you as someone else is worse than assuming the wrong school.

Probably time to step away from learning for a couple days.

Just checked out your program - pretty cool.