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 03-07-2017, 02:27 PM #1 %eax newbie   Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: NoVA Posts: 33 Help with counting outs app I want to build an app to help people practice counting outs. I need help with the algorithm. The algorithm will calculate the number of outs. This is how the application will work. It will deal a pair of cards for two players, and then it will generate a flop. The user will be prompted to enter the number of outs. Then the application will tell the user if they are correct, but if they are incorrect the application will provide the correct number of outs. I tried searching on 2+2, and PokerAI. Can anyone provide me with an algorithm in java, or in pseudocode to count the outs? Thanks.
 03-07-2017, 03:50 PM #2 just_grindin Pooh-Bah   Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 4,342 Re: Help with counting outs app Do you want an equity calculator or? How are we defining "outs" exactly? Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk
03-07-2017, 03:57 PM   #3
%eax
newbie

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NoVA
Posts: 33
Re: Help with counting outs app

Quote:
 Originally Posted by just_grindin Do you want an equity calculator or? How are we defining "outs" exactly? Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk
An out is a card that can come on a future street(s) that can give you the best hand. This includes backdoor outs, hidden outs and chopping outs.

 03-07-2017, 04:00 PM #4 %eax newbie   Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: NoVA Posts: 33 Re: Help with counting outs app Definition of a hidden out: Hero: AQ Villian: 55 Flop: JJT Turn: 7 If the River is a Ten, that would be a hidden out, because you would have the better kicker and win the hand.
03-07-2017, 04:00 PM   #5
just_grindin
Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,342
Re: Help with counting outs app

Quote:
 Originally Posted by %eax An out is a card that can come on a future street(s) that can give you the best hand. This includes backdoor outs, hidden outs and chopping outs.
I'm familiar with the definition of an out in its various forms but you'll have to be more specific when dealing with computers.

So what do you want to return? A number?

What if 30 cards in the deck result in a chop? What if we're currently tied and all cards result in a chop?

How are you representing back door outs if they rely on the previous card to hit? Say an 8 is only an out for me if a 7 hits on the turn?

03-07-2017, 10:45 PM   #6
%eax
newbie

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NoVA
Posts: 33
Re: Help with counting outs app

Quote:
 Originally Posted by just_grindin So what do you want to return? A number?
Yes, I would like an int.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by just_grindin What if 30 cards in the deck result in a chop? What if we're currently tied and all cards result in a chop?
Then I think the program should say that there are zero outs.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by just_grindin How are you representing back door outs if they rely on the previous card to hit? Say an 8 is only an out for me if a 7 hits on the turn?
Yeah, this one is tricky. In Owen Gaines book he says that if you're going to see both the turn and river (we can make this assumption), you can add an extra out for every backdoor draw. It's also possible to have multiple backdoor draws, so you can add one out for each backdoor draw.

I am not that good at counting outs. I am reading Owen Gaines book Poker Math that Matters, and that is where I got the idea for this project. I am basically a jr-mid level web developer, and a micro donk so let me know if I am saying something incorrect. I am open to any suggestions that would make this app better. Thanks.

 03-08-2017, 02:37 AM #7 DarkMagus Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,139 Re: Help with counting outs app Why not just have users try to guess their equity? That's more important than some vaguely defined concept of "outs", and there are already libraries to calculate equity.
03-08-2017, 08:18 AM   #8
just_grindin
Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,342
Re: Help with counting outs app

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DarkMagus Why not just have users try to guess their equity? That's more important than some vaguely defined concept of "outs", and there are already libraries to calculate equity.
Yeah this was at the heart of my questions.

03-08-2017, 08:32 AM   #9
%eax
newbie

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NoVA
Posts: 33
Re: Help with counting outs app

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DarkMagus Why not just have users try to guess their equity? That's more important than some vaguely defined concept of "outs", and there are already libraries to calculate equity.
You are right. I might try that. Thanks!

 03-08-2017, 09:58 AM #10 leavesofliberty self-banned   Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: probably busto Posts: 6,146 Re: Help with counting outs app It doesn't sound like a very compelling app tbh.
03-08-2017, 10:26 AM   #11
%eax
newbie

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NoVA
Posts: 33
Re: Help with counting outs app

Quote:
 Originally Posted by leavesofliberty It doesn't sound like a very compelling app tbh.
i am not doing it to make money. I am primarily doing this to practice, jaxrs, javascript, angular 2, bootstrap, hibernate, and software architecture. I am hoping this will help me with poker as a side benefit.

Last edited by %eax; 03-08-2017 at 10:32 AM.

03-08-2017, 10:46 AM   #12
leavesofliberty
self-banned

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: probably busto
Posts: 6,146
Re: Help with counting outs app

Quote:
 Originally Posted by %eax i am not doing it to make money. I am primarily doing this to practice, jaxrs, javascript, angular 2, bootstrap, hibernate, and software architecture. I am hoping this will help me with poker as a side benefit.
Still, nobody cares what kind of engine a car has if it doesn't have a good body to look at. I'd think of a better idea for an app. Maybe a bargaining game if you still want to wow them with the mathz.

03-08-2017, 11:15 AM   #13
%eax
newbie

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NoVA
Posts: 33
Re: Help with counting outs app

Quote:
 Originally Posted by leavesofliberty Still, nobody cares what kind of engine a car has if it doesn't have a good body to look at. I'd think of a better idea for an app. Maybe a bargaining game if you still want to wow them with the mathz.
What do you mean by a bargaining game? I am open to suggestions.

My goal is to build my first database driven website implemented completely by myself using a cutting edge java based stack. This app will allow me to do that, and I will also be able to use it to practice learning how to calculate poker equity. I will build out my suite of poker apps as I learn more about poker. The website will become more technical, and more visually appealing after the first iteration.

I plan on building websites for businesses (hopefully i can parlay that into a side business), and using some machine learning algorithms for poker and solving enterprise problems. Big data, data science, and AI are my primary interests right now. I think I want to get into Hadoop after I feel like I have mastered web development.

03-08-2017, 12:36 PM   #14
leavesofliberty
self-banned

Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: probably busto
Posts: 6,146
Re: Help with counting outs app

Quote:
 Originally Posted by %eax What do you mean by a bargaining game? I am open to suggestions. My goal is to build my first database driven website implemented completely by myself using a cutting edge java based stack. This app will allow me to do that, and I will also be able to use it to practice learning how to calculate poker equity. I will build out my suite of poker apps as I learn more about poker. The website will become more technical, and more visually appealing after the first iteration. I plan on building websites for businesses (hopefully i can parlay that into a side business), and using some machine learning algorithms for poker and solving enterprise problems. Big data, data science, and AI are my primary interests right now. I think I want to get into Hadoop after I feel like I have mastered web development.
Meh, I think it's a decent idea. I take it back. There's also a lot of personal benefit to going down the poker/compsci rabbit hole. My other idea was something like a "Let's Make a Deal" spin-off or something marketable in the phone game industry.

 03-10-2017, 04:30 PM #15 DarkMagus Carpal \'Tunnel     Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,139 Re: Help with counting outs app I think it's a good idea for an app. It's not really different than any other kind of flash card app someone might make for studying stuff like math, history, music etc.
 03-14-2017, 10:16 AM #16 Xsaa newbie   Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 29 Re: Help with counting outs app You deal two random hands A, B and a flop. Then determine which hand is the favorite on flop, let's say A > B. Then iterate through all other cards left in the deck and increment counter whenever B > A when accounting for 4 cards board. Things to consider: You have to keep doing the first and second steps in case when it's a tie from flop onward or if some hand flop the other one dead. Hope that helps.
03-14-2017, 11:23 AM   #17
%eax
newbie

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NoVA
Posts: 33
Re: Help with counting outs app

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Xsaa You deal two random hands A, B and a flop. Then determine which hand is the favorite on flop, let's say A > B. Then iterate through all other cards left in the deck and increment counter whenever B > A when accounting for 4 cards board. Things to consider: You have to keep doing the first and second steps in case when it's a tie from flop onward or if some hand flop the other one dead. Hope that helps.
Thanks. That would work, but I was looking for a more efficient algorithm. I think I might build a different app.

 03-14-2017, 11:52 AM #18 Xsaa newbie   Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 29 Re: Help with counting outs app You're welcome. What I suggested is actually called "enumerate all" poker evaluation algorithm which is as efficient as you can get when evaluating single hand vs hand.
 03-16-2017, 10:58 AM #19 leavesofliberty self-banned   Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: probably busto Posts: 6,146 Re: Help with counting outs app poker-eval library is your friend.
 03-20-2017, 05:13 PM #20 Pahvak centurion     Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 135 Re: Help with counting outs app I have made a similar app that let's you guess equities: https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...okerquiz&hl=en It's not flashcard based as it actually generates the hands and calculates equities. You can specify ranges too.
03-20-2017, 07:57 PM   #21
%eax
newbie

Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: NoVA
Posts: 33
Re: Help with counting outs app

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Pahvak I have made a similar app that let's you guess equities: https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...okerquiz&hl=en It's not flashcard based as it actually generates the hands and calculates equities. You can specify ranges too.
That's nice. I would install it if there was one for the Iphone.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by leavesofliberty poker-eval library is your friend.
That's in C. Thanks, but I'm not fluent with C. I want to do something with Java. I don't think I'll continue with this idea. I have another idea to improve my coding skills. It won't be poker related for now.

 03-20-2017, 08:23 PM #22 _dave_ _Pooh_Bah_   Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK (or what remains of it) Posts: 12,355 Re: Help with counting outs app poker-eval has a Java interface

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