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Old 08-11-2017, 03:41 PM   #151
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

The USSR sent people to gulags for having the wrong opinion. He's not saying Google is a gulag. He's saying Google is like the USSR; no wrongthink allowed. Obviously its hyperbole (and the wordplay isn't a snug fit), but hyperbole is what gets peoples attention.

Again, I'm not saying I 100% agree with him. I just think the Verge's bias is pretty apparent here.

Last edited by Wolfram; 08-11-2017 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 08-11-2017, 04:01 PM   #152
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Oh yeah I just remembered I hate google and The Internship was the most annoying movie of all time. Double damn googlebro for making me take google's side.
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Old 08-11-2017, 04:19 PM   #153
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Very points: https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/201...biology-sexism

Quote:
3) The author cites science about “averages.” But Google isn’t average.

I called the manifesto’s citations to findings about “average” women a “sleight of hand” for a very specific reason: While he dutifully includes that limiting language when making the citations, the policies he goes on to advance in the memo have no mathematically rigorous connection to those averages. He is deploying these dispassionate facts to argue for ending Google’s attempts at creating a fair and broadly welcoming working environment.

(I cannot judge what the author’s motives might be in adopting this rhetorical strategy: It could be cynical and strategic, or, as I suspect, the author may simply be very, very naďve.)

The author was not simply listing various items of scientific news at random, for the reader’s information only. He was building a case for ending specific, real programs that affect very real people. If his proposals were adopted, it wouldn’t be some abstract concept of “average” that doesn’t get a scholarship, it will be an actual individual woman. It will be an actual female Googler who doesn’t get to attend the Grace Hopper Conference, which provides many women with their first experience of being in a majority-women tech conference space.

If, as the manifesto’s defenders claim, the population averages do not have anything to say about individual Googlers, who are all exceptional, then why is Google the subject of the manifesto’s arguments at all? What do averages have to do with hiring practices at a company that famously hires fewer than one percent of applicants? In the name of the rational empiricism and quantitative rigor that the manifesto holds so dear, shouldn’t we insist that it only cite studies that specifically speak to the tails of the distribution — to the actual pool of women Google draws from?

For example, we could look to the percentage of women majoring in computer science at highly selective colleges and universities. Women currently make up about 30 percent of the computer science majors at Stanford University, one key source of Google’s elite workforce. Harvey Mudd College, another elite program, has seen its numbers grow steadily for many years, and is currently at about 50 percent women in their computer science department.

Yet Google’s workforce is just 19 percent female. So even if we imagine for a moment that the manifesto is correct and there is some biological ceiling on the percentage of women who will be suited to work at Google — less than 50 percent of their workforce — isn’t it the case that Google, and tech generally, is almost certainly not yet hitting that ceiling?

In other words, it is clear that we are still operating in an environment where it is much more likely that women who are biologically able to work in tech are chased away from tech by sociological and other factors, than that biologically unsuited women are somehow brought in by overzealous diversity programs.
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Old 08-11-2017, 04:33 PM   #154
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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as I suspect, the author may simply be very, very naďve
this is probably spot on
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Old 08-11-2017, 05:06 PM   #155
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

That's a pretty great article by the way. Still digesting it, it does take some logical liberties, but I'm drunk and don't feel like arguing on the internet all night.
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:22 PM   #156
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

I got to thinking about some of this history stuff.

We've all seen this picture of Margaret Hamilton:



It's stood up as some proud flag of women can code and hooray to what happens when we are more inclusive, encouraging, etc.

Well, there are two minor issues with all of this, and I always feel conflicted:

1- Programming was seen as a menial data-entry around that time, and thus, women's work.

2- Margaret Hamilton did not work alone. In fact, her manager and the entire coding team she was on was female. The manager refused to allow men to work under her.

I guess #2 bothers me because it's always presented like she worked alone and built up that code alone (no), or that she was some love lioness in a den of lions (no), and everyone fails to acknowledge who all of her coworkers are. It's kind of ironic when one considers that the very people who are bringing up her womaness eschews the many other women who worked along side her.
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:30 PM   #157
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

So it sounds like your taking one of the few accomplishments of women in IT and ****ting on it.
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:37 PM   #158
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Why would you say that?
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:45 PM   #159
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Ok, I'm still drunk, but this seems like a pretty even-handed take on the whole subject:

https://heterodoxacademy.org/2017/08...r-differences/

tldr:
1. Gender differences in math/science ability, achievement, and performance are small or nil.
2. Gender differences in interest and enjoyment of math, coding, and highly “systemizing” activities are large.
3. Culture and context matter, in complicated ways. [...] progress toward gender equality in rights and opportunities sometimes leads to larger gender differences in some traits and career choices. Nonetheless, [progressive actions] may increase the likelihood that girls will grow up to pursue careers in tech, and this is true whether or not biology plays a role in producing any particular population difference.

Quote:
Population differences in interest may be part of the explanation for why there are fewer women in the applicant pool, but the women who choose to enter the pool are just as capable as the larger number of men in the pool. This conclusion does not deny that various forms of bias, harassment, and discouragement exist and contribute to outcome disparities, nor does it imply that the differences in interest are biologically fixed and cannot be changed in future generations.

Last edited by Wolfram; 08-11-2017 at 06:50 PM.
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:54 PM   #160
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by daveT View Post
I got to thinking about some of this history stuff.

We've all seen this picture of Margaret Hamilton:



It's stood up as some proud flag of women can code and hooray to what happens when we are more inclusive, encouraging, etc.

Well, there are two minor issues with all of this, and I always feel conflicted:

1- Programming was seen as a menial data-entry around that time, and thus, women's work.

2- Margaret Hamilton did not work alone. In fact, her manager and the entire coding team she was on was female. The manager refused to allow men to work under her.

I guess #2 bothers me because it's always presented like she worked alone and built up that code alone (no), or that she was some love lioness in a den of lions (no), and everyone fails to acknowledge who all of her coworkers are. It's kind of ironic when one considers that the very people who are bringing up her womaness eschews the many other women who worked along side her.
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Originally Posted by daveT View Post
Why would you say that?
I'm not saying you are, I'm saying 1 sounds like programming today is somehow much tougher than back when mere women did it. And 2 sounds like a pretty typical of undercutting someone's achievement as if CLOC was ever a good metric.

It would be interesting to see a documentary on the transition of data processing from Female to Male dominated.
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Old 08-11-2017, 07:51 PM   #161
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

You know, I would interested in seeing that documentary as well.

I wasn't meaning that to disparage women at all. I was meaning that, culturally, it was considered a job like secretary or something that was geared towards women. Programming simply wasn't seen like it is today.

Programming is not the only currently male-dominated field that was strongly promoted to women. Film directing was advertised as a career perfect for women, and generally discouraged men. Can't find this sort of stuff online, but the local library on early film history would have some wonderful information on it.
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:10 PM   #162
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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Originally Posted by Wolfram View Post
Obviously its hyperbole (and the wordplay isn't a snug fit), but hyperbole is what gets peoples attention.
...but that gets to my point about how he isn't any different than those who call Donald Trump and his supporters Nazis, which is something I bet Mr. Damore and all his new friends have very strong feelings about!

Last edited by goofyballer; 08-11-2017 at 09:13 PM. Reason: on top of which, the gulag hyperbole is clearly LESS accurate since Trump does have actual Nazi followers!
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:52 PM   #163
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

I'm sure plenty of those that support Mr. Damore's firing have positive feelings about the USSR and its gulag policies. Extrimists gonna extrimist.

But yes, using "gulag" is pretty outrageous and not unsimilar to the "nazi" connotation for Trump. Lets call it a draw

This is the terrible thing about discussions about politics. Extremists and outrageous claims get noticed while the sensible moderates get lost in the shuffle. The truth is often somewhere in the middle.
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Old 08-11-2017, 10:01 PM   #164
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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I'm sure plenty of those that support Mr. Damore's firing have positive feelings about the USSR and its gulag policies.
I really doubt that; unlike neo-Nazism and white supremacy today, there is ~no voice today for the idea that the Soviets (or N. Korea as a similar example) had the right response to political dissent (I won't deny such a thing exists cause like you said, extremists gonna extremist, but I will say that as someone who follows politics closely and has seen all kinds of stupid **** on the internet as a result, I have never seen someone drop that take, ever).

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This is the terrible thing about discussions about politics. Extremists and outrageous claims get noticed while the sensible moderates get lost in the shuffle. The truth is often somewhere in the middle.
Agreed.
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:18 AM   #165
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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Originally Posted by daveT View Post
Well, there are two minor issues with all of this, and I always feel conflicted:

1- Programming was seen as a menial data-entry around that time, and thus, women's work.
it may have been seen that way back then. but, according to her wiki, such opinions were far from the truth. her wiki asserts that she developed and implemented novel designs with very reliable error handling that were integral to the success of NASA missions, most notably the moon landing.

anyway, I realize that you did not promote or imply such a viewpoint but you also did not explicitly deny it, so it was not entirely clear how misguided such ideas were.

Last edited by Victor; 08-12-2017 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 08-12-2017, 09:41 AM   #166
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

I'm pretty sure that early days programming was a lot harder than current day programming. The tools they had were abysmal.
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Old 08-12-2017, 11:28 AM   #167
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

And they were under much tighter constraints with regards to memory, when was the last time you cared about memory?
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Old 08-12-2017, 12:06 PM   #168
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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when was the last time you cared about memory?
Chrome developer located
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Old 08-12-2017, 03:50 PM   #169
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Yeah for a few years the knock on Java vs. C++ was poor performance. We know how that turned out.
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Old 08-13-2017, 04:52 AM   #170
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
I'm not saying you are, I'm saying 1 sounds like programming today is somehow much tougher than back when mere women did it. And 2 sounds like a pretty typical of undercutting someone's achievement as if CLOC was ever a good metric.

It would be interesting to see a documentary on the transition of data processing from Female to Male dominated.
Here's from wiki regarding her:


Margaret Hamilton's Wiki Page
Quote:
NASA[edit]

Hamilton in 1969, standing next to the navigation software that she and her MIT team produced for the Apollo project.

Hamilton during her time as lead Apollo flight software designer.
Hamilton then joined the Charles Stark Draper Laboratory at MIT, which at the time was working on the Apollo space mission. She eventually led a team credited with developing the software for Apollo and Skylab.[14] Hamilton's team was responsible for developing in-flight software,[15] which included algorithms designed by various senior scientists for the Apollo command module, lunar lander, and the subsequent Skylab.[4][16] Another part of her team designed and developed the systems software [17] which included the error detection and recovery software such as restarts and the Display Interface Routines (AKA the Priority Displays) which Hamilton designed and developed.[18] She worked to gain hands-on experience during a time when computer science courses were uncommon and software engineering courses did not exist.[4]

Her areas of expertise include systems design and software development, enterprise and process modelling, development paradigm, formal systems modeling languages, system-oriented objects for systems modelling and development, automated life-cycle environments, methods for maximizing software reliability and reuse, domain analysis, correctness by built-in language properties, open-architecture techniques for robust systems, full life-cycle automation, quality assurance, seamless integration, error detection and recovery techniques, man-machine interface systems, operating systems, end-to-end testing techniques, and life-cycle management techniques.[4][19]
This was all done in assembly language. One of the reasons C was invented, the chief reason actually, was that managing the intellectual complexities of software development of mission critical type systems was a monumental challenge in assembly language.

DaveT statement:
Quote:
1- Programming was seen as a menial data-entry around that time, and thus, women's work.
Tempted to state that this is bull****. I'll be kind though and state citation needed.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:06 PM   #171
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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And they were under much tighter constraints with regards to memory, when was the last time you cared about memory?
ya if you read her wiki, that was a big deal and she is credited with unique and ingenious ways to overcome it.

Quote:
The computer (or rather the software in it) was smart enough to recognize that it was being asked to perform more tasks than it should be performing. It then sent out an alarm, which meant to the astronaut, I'm overloaded with more tasks than I should be doing at this time and I'm going to keep only the more important tasks; i.e., the ones needed for landing ... Actually, the computer was programmed to do more than recognize error conditions. A complete set of recovery programs was incorporated into the software. The software's action, in this case, was to eliminate lower priority tasks and re-establish the more important ones ... If the computer hadn't recognized this problem and taken recovery action, I doubt if Apollo 11 would have been the successful moon landing it was
pretty crazy and impressive. and yes, lol at accounting for that stuff today.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:29 PM   #172
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

My guess is as data processing moved from boring back office stuff that only the largest corporations did to something critical to most every business is when it started getting more attention from men. Although it could be as simple as the male dominated PC culture created a generation of men who owned computers and the standard male preference in business took over.
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Old 08-13-2017, 06:35 PM   #173
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

HuffPo Column - Yes, Women's Brains Are Different. And Google Needs More Of Them
Quote:
The bulk of engineering jobs at Google do not involve sitting in a cave alone writing code, and in fact require “coordinating and cooperating” with groups of people, Zunger wrote:

If someone told you that engineering was a field where you could get away with not dealing with people or feelings, then I’m very sorry to tell you that you have been lied to ... All of these traits which the manifesto described as “female” are the core traits which make someone successful at engineering. Anyone can learn how to write code; hell, by the time someone reaches level seven or so, it’s expected that they have an essentially complete mastery of technique.
This was my reaction after reading the Damore memo pretty much. If you work long in this field you are bound to run into guys that in a nutshell, are completely inflexible. I've beaten this drum before here. Software development tasks complexity is ever increasing and functioning in a collaborative manner as a team is crucial. In my view, FWIW, the days of the hero developer are gone.
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Old 08-15-2017, 05:43 PM   #174
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

On the topic of women at NASA, I recommend the film Hidden Figures. It's superb
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Old 08-16-2017, 12:43 AM   #175
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

The Economist nails it. https://www.economist.com/news/21726...nging-rebuttal

Quote:
Then you seem to make a giant leap from group differences between men and women on such measures as interest in people rather than things, or systematising versus empathising, to differences in men’s and women’s ability to code. At least that’s what you seem to be doing; you don’t quite say so. There is no evidence for such an inference. And that is only the first flaw in your argument. I can see at least six more, any of which would derail it on its own.

First, you ignore many other gender differences, basing your argument only on a few that you think support your conclusion. Second, you’re ignoring everything else that could explain the gender gap. Third, the gender differences you cite differ between countries and over time. Fourth, they don’t even support your argument, because you don’t seem to understand what makes a great software engineer. Fifth, you clearly don’t understand our company, and so fail to understand what we are trying to do when we hire. And sixth, even if you are right that more men than women are well-suited to the job of software engineer at google, you are wrong that taking steps to recruit more women is inherently unfair to men.

Your memo was a triumph of motivated reasoning: heads men win; tails women lose. Here are a few psychological differences between the sexes that you didn’t mention. Men score higher on measures of anger, and lower on co-operation and self-discipline. If it had been the other way round, I’m betting you would have cited these differences as indicating lack of suitability for the job of coder. You lean on measures of interest and personality, rather than ability and achievement, presumably because the latter don’t support your hypothesis. In many countries girls now do better in pretty much every subject at school than boys—again, if it had been the other way around I’m sure you wouldn’t have neglected to mention that fact.
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