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Old 08-10-2017, 10:18 AM   #101
saw7988
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

CyberShark, you pose great questions. I honestly don't have a ton of knowledge in this area, I've been mostly speaking out of personal principles and philosophy. I think some other posters will probably address the questions quite nicely, but I also do think you bring up a grievance I have with the left (which I tried to illustrate while getting kerowoed - so maybe successfully?) where emotional outrages of minority or underprivileged groups often get valued far more highly than evidence and rational analyses.
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:44 AM   #102
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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Originally Posted by CyberShark93 View Post
hi, thx for the reply

Personally I think these things should be addressed on a case by case basis, as opposed to say taking a figure such as the current representation is 80/20 and say that drastic change is required. Things like affirmative action quotas are often too simplistic and top down. every employer that gave me a job offer spent at least 7 hours interviewing me, so behind every hire there are a lot of thought going on behind the scenes.(its hard for me to imagine there is systemic discrimination based on something as irrelevant as gender, because why waste 7 hours of your staffs time on technical interviews if they aren't your main deciding factor). So I think its very unfair for us to look at a percentage like 80/20 and point at companies and say that they need to change.

regarding privilege, while men may have had historic privileges in society, I don't think its true today. the tech industry in particular from my experiences at university are full of women only events, women only scholarships, or even women only internship. I don't think historic injustice is a good enough reason to discriminate against the current generation of young men who have done nothing wrong.

I don't think the tech industry should be specifically marketed to men or women(I want cool new gadgets, I don't care who makes them). As long as people are free to make their own career decisions whatever the percentage of representation it comes out to be, then so be it.
so, no discrimination because all of your interviews took 7 hours. just amazing logic.
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:57 AM   #103
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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so, no discrimination because all of your interviews took 7 hours. just amazing logic.
The point is, there exists a rigorous interview process that is highly technical, doesn't mean individual cases of discrimination can't exist. But systemic discrimination is highly unlikely, because why give rigorous technical interviews if you are going to discriminate based on gender. Kind of defeats the point of technical interviews which is to assess your ability in order to discriminate based on your ability.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:14 AM   #104
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

I'm not an expert but I have seen evidence that Wolfram is correct about free societies ending up quite strongly gendered. There are however reasons why Google might want to manufacture an artificially diverse workforce. It turns out women actually use Google's products. A lot. So having women on board for developing the products, mapping Google's marketing strategies, etc etc could very well be a good idea for them. At which point conservatives will pounce on me and go AHA! You're OK with women being preferentially hired, but I bet you wouldn't be OK with WHITE MEN getting preferentially hired?! To which my reply is, context is a *****.

I have to say that it's kind of a tell when people get mad about that stuff. Like, people get super rustled about Harvard's diversity policies, but check this out:

Quote:
Legacies—sons and daughters of Harvard grads—comprise 12 percent to 13 percent of every entering class. (Their acceptance rate is about 30 percent—four times the overall applicant pool’s admit rate.)
That strike anyone as meritocratic? Nobody cares about that though. The only biases that send people like googlebro to DEFCON 1 are the ones where maybe people like him aren't getting their dues.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:14 AM   #105
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by CyberShark93 View Post
The point is, there exists a rigorous interview process that is highly technical, doesn't mean individual cases of discrimination can't exist. But systemic discrimination is highly unlikely, because why give rigorous technical interviews if you are going to discriminate based on gender. Kind of defeats the point of technical interviews which is to assess your ability in order to discriminate based on your ability.
the interview process in tech has been heavily criticized. all firms are looking for better ways to identify and recruit talent. we have had long discussions about it on this forum.

to act like its some perfect process bc you spent 7 hours with a few company is just incredible.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:19 AM   #106
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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the interview process in tech has been heavily criticized. all firms are looking for better ways to identify and recruit talent. we have had long discussions about it on this forum.

to act like its some perfect process bc you spent 7 hours with a few company is just incredible.
Never said it was perfect, I said if firms are spending a lot of time and resources to distinguish talent using long technical interviews it's far more likely that they are hiring based on ability rather than gender.

FYI I don't think a perfect interview system exists.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:26 AM   #107
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Cyber, you're missing 2 key points.

1. You're assuming discrimination is always a conscious decision. "why give rigorous technical interviews if you are going to discriminate based on gender" - you don't think you are going to discriminate based on gender, but based on your upbringing, life experiences, personal biases, etc. etc. you may subconsciously prefer to hire a man.

2. You are completely strawmanning the discrimination process. As I said before (I think) - discrimination doesn't mean let's just throw out this girl's resume because she has boobs. It can certainly mesh in quite naturally and subtly in a technical interview process. Maybe you think a girl is a 88% match but a guy is an 85% match and give him the role anyway. You don't arrive at those numbers (note, these numbers don't actually exist, it's a simplified description of what may be going on) without the technical interview, and it also allows for nonzero female hires.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:35 AM   #108
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

You (Cyber) also are conflating the interview with the entire highering process. There are plenty of filter spots before you are brought into an interview.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:36 AM   #109
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by saw7988 View Post
Cyber, you're missing 2 key points.

1. You're assuming discrimination is always a conscious decision. "why give rigorous technical interviews if you are going to discriminate based on gender" - you don't think you are going to discriminate based on gender, but based on your upbringing, life experiences, personal biases, etc. etc. you may subconsciously prefer to hire a man.

2. You are completely strawmanning the discrimination process. As I said before (I think) - discrimination doesn't mean let's just throw out this girl's resume because she has boobs. It can certainly mesh in quite naturally and subtly in a technical interview process. Maybe you think a girl is a 88% match but a guy is an 85% match and give him the role anyway.
Sure, the problem with the subconscious bias argument is that it's hard to prove, do we have evidence that a significant proportion of decision makers in tech are subconsciously bias against women? (Actually the only study I've seen seems to show that women with the same qualifications as men are twice as likely to get a job in STEM) I'll try to find the article for you. Even this study isn't perfect, because does the same qualification necessarily translate to the same job performance? Honestly I think the best solution is to let companies make their own decisions. I think we are often too quick to point the finger and shout sexism.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:39 AM   #110
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Perhaps, but for a lot longer we were more likely to shout, hey sugartits get me some coffee.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:41 AM   #111
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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The only biases that send people like googlebro to DEFCON 1 are the ones where maybe people like him aren't getting their dues.
Its very natural for anyone to be more concerned about alleged injustices against themselves or people like them. That's natural human behavior. We shouldn't fault black people for focusing on black issues, we shouldn't fault feminists for focusing on feminist issues. This isn't a competition. The one that has the biggest grievance shouldn't get to silence other grievances.

And I think most of the rage isn't towards the arguably unfair pro-diversity policies. It is towards the orthodoxies surrounding them that silence any criticism or attempt at discussion.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:42 AM   #112
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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Perhaps, but for a lot longer we were more likely to shout, hey sugartits get me some coffee.
while that may have been true historically, is it still true today?
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:43 AM   #113
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

It sounds like the only "silencing of discussion" going at google is people disagreeing with him. Apparently there is free political discussions in there internal forums.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:50 AM   #114
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...women-over-men

I think it might have been this one, not sure I came across it a while ago. I might have mis-remembered cos it seems to be about stem faculties in universities rather than industry.

Anyway, I maintain that we should leave companies to make their own hiring decisions, if they want to hire more women, then great, if not, its their company.

I think the whole hire x% of women or discrimination is unhelpful.
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Old 08-10-2017, 12:24 PM   #115
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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It sounds like the only "silencing of discussion" going at google is people disagreeing with him.
Do you fire everybody that you disagree with?
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Old 08-10-2017, 12:55 PM   #116
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Not sure if any company is actually imposing quotas, are they? I would probably disagree with that. I think the idea though is to just put extra effort into making women feel more accepted in the tech world, because such a low % being women probably indicates high inefficiency - both in terms of social biases and highering men > more qualified women.
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Old 08-10-2017, 01:10 PM   #117
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

FWIW a buddy of mine (who works in tech and doesn't think the manifesto was that bad) posted a poll on FB asking if women avoided tech due to discrimination or think they've been discriminated against. This is the only reply so far:

Quote:
I chose a science field because there were fewer women and I knew I would have an advantage. What I didn't know is that I would have to prove myself more often, ignore more statements/jokes/garbage than I ever thought, and have certain stigmas already attached to myself. I really didn't believe that this still existed in the work place, but a female in an automotive engineering role...it still feels a little like the 50s. There are improvements, but sexism in the field is definitely still here. I don't know that it is only tech/science/traditional male roles though. And, the situation may be easily reversed for a male in traditional female roles. This may be stereotypical behavior instead of sexism, but the playing field is not equal.
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Old 08-10-2017, 01:26 PM   #118
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

From the politics forum:

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Originally Posted by Chips Ahoy View Post
Some google bro background.

Google has a long standing internal listserv (google groups) for politics discussion. People can and do take every position on the politics list with no fear of job consequences. An employee chooses to read the list or not.

In recent years conservative employees decided the politics list was bad. They didn't like what they heard. So they made a new list -- a safe space you might say -- for conservative politics. To keep the conservative politics list safe they made it closed, invite only, and they invited only conservative members. They then left the original politics list as a group.

Googlebro has a posting history on the google politics lists that's far more provocative than his manifesto. That doc was scaled back to be persuasive for the general audience. He also published it outside the politics sandboxes.

An analogy for 2p2 would be a politics poster who decides his very important political opinions need to be heard in every subforum and not just in politics forums / threads. 2p2bro would be dropping his manifesto in strat, SE, BBV, etc. As a bonus his manifesto would insult a sizable subset of 2p2 authors & books. Of course 2p2bro gets instantly perma'd, without even examining his manifesto for accuracy. There are rules.
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Old 08-10-2017, 01:38 PM   #119
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread



Sums it up pretty well for me.
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Old 08-10-2017, 01:47 PM   #120
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Seems pretty obvious this guys didn't read the memo either.
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Old 08-10-2017, 02:00 PM   #121
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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Do you fire everybody that you disagree with?
The complaint made in the manifesto doesn't include the firing...
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Old 08-10-2017, 02:09 PM   #122
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

It proved his point though, didn't it?
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Old 08-10-2017, 02:27 PM   #123
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

I think the firing is a no-brainer and a completely separate issue. You could PROBABLY justify the firing purely economically, nevermind the liberal/youthful persona I'm sure they'd like to maintain.
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Old 08-10-2017, 02:45 PM   #124
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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It proved his point though, didn't it?
Not in the slightest. He left google no choice when he started talking about women not being suited for jobs they already held at google.
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Old 08-10-2017, 02:52 PM   #125
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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Not in the slightest. He left google no choice when he started talking about women not being suited for jobs they already held at google.
Where does he say this?
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