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Old 08-08-2017, 12:49 PM   #26
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
Lol, they are only being made available because white males didn't need them to get where they are. He's arguing for the status quo which is how we ended up with a mono-culture in the first place.
Yup I agree - and I think that's the best argument against his point (NOT that he's a sexist).
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Old 08-08-2017, 12:51 PM   #27
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

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I just think it is wrong to judge individual people on the basis of their broader distinctions such as race, ethnicity, country, age and gender.

100s of millions of women are certainly capable of being leaders. likewise men. they should be chosen based on what they can provide.

that some study or a bunch of studies showed that women "on average, have more Neuroticism" absolutely should not be something that is taken into account forcing women to overcome another obstacle.
Is it taken into account? I think he's just saying that as an explanation for why there may be less women right now. Not that it should be used in any way. But I could be wrong here.
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Old 08-08-2017, 01:02 PM   #28
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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Yup I agree - and I think that's the best argument against his point (NOT that he's a sexist).
He's a sexist because he is arguing for the statis quo based on genetic traits of females. He is saying don't bother to judge them individually we already know they aren't fit to be developers.
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Old 08-08-2017, 02:27 PM   #29
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Ok - I really didn't think that's what he was saying but maybe I was just being too kind.
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Old 08-08-2017, 02:39 PM   #30
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Thanks for listening and engaging.
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Old 08-08-2017, 03:47 PM   #31
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

You're welcome. I value open and honest discussion.

So I re-skimmed the memo, and I'm going to have to continue to disagree. Please point out to me where he says "not to judge women individually since they aren't fit to be developers."

The two most important thesis-defining and controversial sections to me seem to be where
1) He tries to explain why there might be more men than women in tech
2) He gives suggestions for how women's important distinctions could be valued more highly

I just don't see advocating for discriminating or not treating women as individuals when it actually matters - like the hiring process.

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I hope it’s clear that I’m not saying that diversity is bad, that Google or society is 100% fair, that we shouldn’t try to correct for existing biases, or that minorities have the same experience of those in the majority. My larger point is that we have an intolerance for ideas and evidence that don’t fit a certain ideology. I’m also not saying that we should restrict people to certain gender roles; I’m advocating for quite the opposite: treat people as individuals, not as just another member of their group (tribalism).
And once again, to be completely clear -

I think he's very wrong about his analysis that gender differences are even remotely close to both anti-female discrimination and cultural norms as causes of the gender gap in tech, and I agree that some form of affirmative action is necessary to recuperate from this setback. But I don't think we will win this argument without trying to understand the opposing viewpoint and frame it in a fair way and without strawmans.
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Old 08-08-2017, 03:57 PM   #32
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

A dead give away was when he talked about lack of free speech on college...
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Old 08-08-2017, 05:33 PM   #33
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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Originally Posted by saw7988 View Post
You're welcome. I value open and honest discussion.

So I re-skimmed the memo, and I'm going to have to continue to disagree. Please point out to me where he says "not to judge women individually since they aren't fit to be developers."

The two most important thesis-defining and controversial sections to me seem to be where
1) He tries to explain why there might be more men than women in tech
2) He gives suggestions for how women's important distinctions could be valued more highly

I just don't see advocating for discriminating or not treating women as individuals when it actually matters - like the hiring process.



And once again, to be completely clear -

I think he's very wrong about his analysis that gender differences are even remotely close to both anti-female discrimination and cultural norms as causes of the gender gap in tech, and I agree that some form of affirmative action is necessary to recuperate from this setback. But I don't think we will win this argument without trying to understand the opposing viewpoint and frame it in a fair way and without strawmans.
thats why much of his article is contradictory. you cant judge ppl properly and avoid discrimination if you believe and internalize much of what he asserts, esp his list of personality differences.
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Old 08-08-2017, 07:32 PM   #34
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

So, if I do a point-by-point evisceration of this letter, I would expect to go pretty viral?

This letter is so out-of-bounds and blatantly retarded... I'm not sure why anyone is giving this any discussion or credence. It seems impossible to me that an illiterate working in the swamps could manage to write a piece that is line-by-line factually incorrect, much less a Google Employee and Harvard grad.

FWIW, I've worked at companies where the racism, sexism, etc, is completely overt. People really need to rethink their world, or at the least, try to attend restaurants with 50 / 50 servers and cooks, lol.
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Old 08-08-2017, 07:47 PM   #35
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

I don't think it would go very viral at this point. The guy seems like a sheltered idiot who has little experience or knowledge of life.
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Old 08-08-2017, 09:29 PM   #36
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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So, if I do a point-by-point evisceration of this letter, I would expect to go pretty viral?

This letter is so out-of-bounds and blatantly retarded... I'm not sure why anyone is giving this any discussion or credence. It seems impossible to me that an illiterate working in the swamps could manage to write a piece that is line-by-line factually incorrect, much less a Google Employee and Harvard grad.

FWIW, I've worked at companies where the racism, sexism, etc, is completely overt. People really need to rethink their world, or at the least, try to attend restaurants with 50 / 50 servers and cooks, lol.
doubt it goes viral but who knows? I wouldnt mind reading it.

but I think you are pretty sheltered if you are surprised by his piece. you see who the usa president is? and the internet is chock full of ppl who passionately subscribe and promote such theories.
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Old 08-09-2017, 07:43 AM   #37
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

He really shouldn't have gone anywhere near the physiological differences between men and women. Thats where he lost his job imo.
But I think this is overall an overreaction. The fact is a quick google search tells me that 18% of CS graduates are women and 19% of tech employees at Google are women. So where is the underrepresentation exactly?
There are just more men than women interested in tech.
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Old 08-09-2017, 10:20 AM   #38
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

I dunno man, thats a pretty low percentage.
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:04 AM   #39
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Maybe it is low, but how is that google's fault?

edit:
I don't mean to strawman you, maybe your argument isn't that google is practising discrimination, but its certainly the media's narrative.
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:21 AM   #40
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

If there are systemic reasons women stay out of STEM fields then it isn't googles fault per se, but stopping programs that seek to counter it at this point wouldn't be a good look. It's not easy and if you're committed to diversity I don't see how you're going to avoid pissing off angry white guys. The question becomes do the benefits outweigh the costs?
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Old 08-09-2017, 11:29 AM   #41
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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I dunno man, thats a pretty low percentage.


What's your argument exactly? Because we can't expect Google to hire 50% of women for tech roles when only ~18% of the people who pursue a tech career are women.

If the point is to discuss why more women don't pursue a career in tech then we can have that discussion.
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Old 08-09-2017, 02:16 PM   #42
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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Originally Posted by BRpokah View Post
What's your argument exactly? Because we can't expect Google to hire 50% of women for tech roles when only ~18% of the people who pursue a tech career are women.

If the point is to discuss why more women don't pursue a career in tech then we can have that discussion.
I personally think it's a combination of factors imprinted intentionally or unintentionally by parents and society on to children. Humans are social creatures and even if we don't hear explicit messages we can often gather social behavior from social interactions in our daily lives as well as from popular culture especially in the Internet age.

I would assume some of the most extreme parts of the anti-diversity culture also happen to be interested in tech (no correlation just by pure chance/numbers) and come up with a lot of the most hostile environments, messages, and interactions for women and this is applied to a broader spectrum of tech employees because it fits the narrative of white socially awkward male.

Not trying to down play how systemic the problem is I just think it's easy to apply the anti-woman narrative to the tech employee stereotype.

Anecdotally where I work but before I worked there we had an incident where a male and female coworkers were having sex together and it got put of hand and spilled over into work when the "relationship" didn't work out.

To this day department of all men almost always blame the woman for the problems that spilled over and how crazy she was and all I hear from them about the guy is he was an idiot for doing it with a smirk and a head shake. We haven't hired a woman in our department since then just a bunch of white men. Don't know if that is a coincidence or not as I don't know what our applicant pool is for hiring but it always makes me wonder.

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Old 08-09-2017, 05:29 PM   #43
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Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

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Originally Posted by Victor View Post
I just think it is wrong to judge individual people on the basis of their broader distinctions such as race, ethnicity, country, age and gender.

100s of millions of women are certainly capable of being leaders. likewise men. they should be chosen based on what they can provide.

that some study or a bunch of studies showed that women "on average, have more Neuroticism" absolutely should not be something that is taken into account forcing women to overcome another obstacle.
If you read the paper you're in exact agreement with him and in opposition to Google's HR and hiring practices.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:34 PM   #44
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Except for him wanting to not hire women for development roles he deems "masculine" and direct them towards "feminine" dev roles and stop hiring for diversity.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:39 PM   #45
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

I'd ask for a quote but that would require you to read it.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:44 PM   #46
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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I'd ask for a quote but that would require you to read it.
His main thesis was Google should discontinue programs in place that focus on supporting women and minorities based on unproven leftist ideology and implement his more rational ideas for separating devs based on gender and encouraging women to fill dev roles that closely align with what are considered more female norms.

Edit: Rough paraphrasing women should work on front end stuff because it's more socially oriented and deals with being agreeable to people.

He did also promote more paired programming because women are more social.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:44 PM   #47
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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I personally think it's a combination of factors imprinted intentionally or unintentionally by parents and society on to children. Humans are social creatures and even if we don't hear explicit messages we can often gather social behavior from social interactions in our daily lives as well as from popular culture especially in the Internet age.

I would assume some of the most extreme parts of the anti-diversity culture also happen to be interested in tech (no correlation just by pure chance/numbers) and come up with a lot of the most hostile environments, messages, and interactions for women and this is applied to a broader spectrum of tech employees because it fits the narrative of white socially awkward male.

Not trying to down play how systemic the problem is I just think it's easy to apply the anti-woman narrative to the tech employee stereotype.
Who here was alive in the 1980s? (raises hand).

Think about what the world was like back then:

Nerds -- all men, all computers.

All tech stuff was very explicitly advertised to boys.

Movie tropes: Hacker sitting in an unlit room with a jar to pee in.

Even in the 90s, knowing anything about computers was considered super nerdy.

So, no, women weren't exactly keen on sitting in a dark room, peeing in a jar, not showering for 3 months, and growing a long beard.

It's a contrast to how things were before the 1980s, where computer programming was dominated by women, but that's a totally different story.

Even though society is making large strides to remove barriers, we still have people 30+ who were not only advertised to, but raised by a generation who was advertised to as well. The old-guard has to die, and eventually, this new generation where social norms are less beholden to that kind of advertising will take over.

With all that said, only 30% of all job categories are 55 / 45 or "more even" split. I think it's silly that computer tech is the whipping post on this debate....

Quote:
Anecdotally where I work but before I worked there we had an incident where a male and female coworkers were having sex together and it got put of hand and spilled over into work when the "relationship" didn't work out.

To this day department of all men almost always blame the woman for the problems that spilled over and how crazy she was and all I hear from them about the guy is he was an idiot for doing it with a smirk and a head shake. We haven't hired a woman in our department since then just a bunch of white men. Don't know if that is a coincidence or not as I don't know what our applicant pool is for hiring but it always makes me wonder.

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You don't want to say it, but you know this is exactly why your department is all male.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:52 PM   #48
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

People are getting way too worked up over this memo. Think about it. Have you ever met a well adjusted individual who decided to write a 10-page memo open letter to his workplace without it being part of his responsibilities. The most likely explanation is this guy went off the rails a little and is dealing with some mental stuff. I'm not a psychologist, but he was either screwed up when he got there or became screwed up over time. We don't need to dissect the meaning of the memo because its author, simply by taking the time to write it, has already outed himself as someone not to take seriously.

Let's wait for the book written by a harvard phd currently practicing sociology research before discussing the finer points of gender differences in the workplace.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:54 PM   #49
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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Originally Posted by daveT View Post
Who here was alive in the 1980s? (raises hand).

Think about what the world was like back then:

Nerds -- all men, all computers.

All tech stuff was very explicitly advertised to boys.

Movie tropes: Hacker sitting in an unlit room with a jar to pee in.

Even in the 90s, knowing anything about computers was considered super nerdy.

So, no, women weren't exactly keen on sitting in a dark room, peeing in a jar, not showering for 3 months, and growing a long beard.

It's a contrast to how things were before the 1980s, where computer programming was dominated by women, but that's a totally different story.

Even though society is making large strides to remove barriers, we still have people 30+ who were not only advertised to, but raised by a generation who was advertised to as well. The old-guard has to die, and eventually, this new generation where social norms are less beholden to that kind of advertising will take over.

With all that said, only 30% of all job categories are 55 / 45 or "more even" split. I think it's silly that computer tech is the whipping post on this debate....
I think we agree on all of this. Stereotypes and social conditioning in various forms have led to a segregation of women and men in the labor force, perhaps tech specifically. If I missed your thesis I would like to hear from you where we disagree.


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You don't want to say it, but you know this is exactly why your department is all male.
Nope I am just being objective in my assessment. I am not normally involved in hiring decisions and the only ones I have been the applicant pool only had 1 female candidate out of 2 opent positions. She was woefully unqualified for the position so it was a no brainer. Other departments at my company are predominantly female as well but I just work it at a non-technical company so most don't apply to open positions in our department because they aren't qualified.
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Old 08-09-2017, 05:55 PM   #50
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Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

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doubt it goes viral but who knows? I wouldnt mind reading it.
I was being tongue-in-cheek. I don't mind picking on idiots and rattling nerves, but I certainly would do nothing to promote their stupidity.

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but I think you are pretty sheltered if you are surprised by his piece. you see who the usa president is? and the internet is chock full of ppl who passionately subscribe and promote such theories.
You are correct, I wouldn't know the average mentality / naivete of a Gates Mills resident...

IRT to the president, simplifying politics to single issue is always incorrect. Rather not discuss any further.
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