Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Programming Discussions about computer programming

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-07-2017, 06:15 PM   #1
greg nice
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
greg nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 9,251
Google gender discrimination thing thread

http://gizmodo.com/exclusive-heres-t...eed-1797564320
greg nice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 12:28 AM   #2
suzzer99
self-banned
 
suzzer99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: on top of the bell curve
Posts: 82,106
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg nice View Post
Dude apparently has a PhD from Harvard, and is now unemployed. https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/07/go...s-memo-author/

There's just something not right about getting a PhD from Harvard, then going to work as an engineer for google. Something went wrong along the way. He's probably just mad about his grandiose dreams not working out.

I've worked with a few devs with PhD's - two were absolutely horrible. One was ok.
suzzer99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 12:54 AM   #3
RustyBrooks
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
RustyBrooks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 23,066
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
I've worked with a few devs with PhD's - two were absolutely horrible. One was ok.
You can get a phd in CS or even something like EE while completely being an academic, i.e. not having much real world applicable skill. It's not surprising nor should it even count as a black mark to say so. PhDs aren't *for* developing concrete skills.

Some phds are good programmers, but thats in spite of their phd, not because of it.

One of my first side jobs in college was writing code for CS grad students,

In many universities CS is taught like math, completely sans computers.
RustyBrooks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 12:56 AM   #4
RustyBrooks
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
RustyBrooks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 23,066
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

I actually wrote that without knowing who the phd in question was. What a ****bird.
RustyBrooks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 01:41 AM   #5
daveT
S.A.G.E. Master
 
daveT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Why didn't I use Clojure instead?
Posts: 21,632
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by greg nice View Post
The opening paragraphs about left -vs- right was already an indicator of sheltered ignorance. I didn't read much further... PhD's don't need to learn to write intelligently, I guess.

I just want to point out that, as far as I've been able to tall, self-identifying conservatives are more liberal than self-identifying liberals.

/pols, kthx
daveT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 02:56 AM   #6
OmgGlutten!
old hand
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,950
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Evolutionary psychology is bull****
OmgGlutten! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 06:42 AM   #7
adios
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Russian Troll
Posts: 20,814
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzzer99 View Post
Dude apparently has a PhD from Harvard, and is now unemployed. https://techcrunch.com/2017/08/07/go...s-memo-author/

There's just something not right about getting a PhD from Harvard, then going to work as an engineer for google. Something went wrong along the way. He's probably just mad about his grandiose dreams not working out.

I've worked with a few devs with PhD's - two were absolutely horrible. One was ok.
From your link:
Quote:
He also argued that women are more neurotic than men, and that this is a factor in their employment.
Read the memo, didn't see the word neurotic used one time.. Your post is a pretty low level of attack in reality. Why not actually discuss the content of the memo instead of disparaging people in CS who are PHD level? That is stupid. Maybe the liquor was doing some talking?

Apparently the link you provided is full of inaccuracie.

http://heavy.com/tech/2017/08/james-...iversity-memo/

Unclear whether or not the guy has a PHD and if he does it is in the field of biology.

Last edited by adios; 08-08-2017 at 07:01 AM.
adios is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 06:55 AM   #8
Sholar
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Sholar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,331
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Not sure that a PhD is especially useful, but I don't know that it's harmful...plenty of PhDs from Harvard (or wherever) aren't great at being academics either, so being able to translate whatever useful things were learned to another discipline isn't automatic.

(Didn't read the memo since...nothing new but am amused enough, adios, to suggest you try `grep -i neurotic`)
Sholar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 07:01 AM   #9
Victor
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Victor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 57,027
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by adios View Post
From your link:
Read the memo, didn't see the word neurotic used one time.. Your post is a pretty low level of attack in reality. Why not actually discuss the content of the memo instead of disparaging people in CS who are PHD level? That is stupid. Maybe the liquor was doing some talking?
I just read it too. still have it open even.

Quote:
Personality differences

Women, on average, have more:

...

Neuroticism (higher anxiety, lower stress tolerance).This may contribute to the higher levels of anxiety women report on Googlegeist and to the lower number of women in high stress jobs.
is neuroticism the same as neurotic? seems like thats exactly what he meant.

regardless, the viewpoint that I just quoted is pretty offensive and likely plain wrong.
Victor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 08:28 AM   #10
ChrisV
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
ChrisV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 34,152
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

That women are more neurotic than men (as measured by the psychological trait of neuroticism, for which standard tests exist) is just a fact. The problem is that in addition to the formal meaning of neurotic, it has a pejorative usage. It's sort of like describing people as "retarded" intending the technical meaning of the word.
ChrisV is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 08:35 AM   #11
kerowo
lolcat
 
kerowo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,986
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by adios View Post
From your link:
Read the memo, didn't see the word neurotic used one time.. Your post is a pretty low level of attack in reality. Why not actually discuss the content of the memo instead of disparaging people in CS who are PHD level? That is stupid. Maybe the liquor was doing some talking?

Apparently the link you provided is full of inaccuracie.

http://heavy.com/tech/2017/08/james-...iversity-memo/

Unclear whether or not the guy has a PHD and if he does it is in the field of biology.
What a surprise, our woman hater sides with a Phd woman hater. In the memo the Phd gave a basis to question the abilities of every female at Google, thus creating a hostile work environment for Women. Google had no choice but to fire him, it's amazing the Phd didn't see that in his future. I'm not sure what he expected the outcome to be of his memo, but not having your screed about being anti-diversity, anti-empath and anti-liberal be given gold stars in a California based tech company right now seems pretty obvious.
kerowo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 09:35 AM   #12
saw7988
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
saw7988's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,266
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Yea the memo took on a far too big of a role than one which it ever could have succeeded. Not sure what the guy thought he could accomplish, but I do understand the general emotional philosophy and motive behind it (while at the time disagreeing with many of the specific points).

I think similarly to what the extreme left does with a lot of conservative viewpoints, completely strawmanning and blowing this memo out of proportion is damaging to their goals.

I generally lean left on a lot of issues, but I have to say what the extreme left (a lot of times at college campuses) has disgusted me as much as some of the alt-right and probably played a big role with the backlash of Trump being the current POTUS.
saw7988 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 09:37 AM   #13
Larry Legend
Isaiah GOAT
 
Larry Legend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Let's go celtics
Posts: 40,991
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

I have a lot of thoughts on the subject.

It's very hard to generalize large groups of people, especially groups as large as "men" and "women" but while we are doing it, I think "women" are likely better then men when it comes to having biological traits that make for effective employees and leaders, in virtually every field.

I think the next 200 years are going to see a major shift in women's leadership globally, and I think it will be a major positive compared to history.
Larry Legend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 09:43 AM   #14
Larry Legend
Isaiah GOAT
 
Larry Legend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Let's go celtics
Posts: 40,991
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

I also agree with saw's last paragraph, and while I lean very left socially, I value tolerance and respect of others' opinions very highly. I also was a member of Obama's campaign and have a degree in political science and my fiancee voted for Trump, and its cool.
Larry Legend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 10:02 AM   #15
OmgGlutten!
old hand
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,950
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

must be really hot.
OmgGlutten! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 10:05 AM   #16
kerowo
lolcat
 
kerowo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,986
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Tolerance doesn't mean you have to accept people pissing in the pool. Not every viewpoint is equal and some we've already decided as a society are wrong so I don't feel the need to give racists or sexists equal time to spout their nonsense. Whether this guy made some points about accepting conservative viewpoints or not isn't material to his being fired for furthering gender stereotypes Google has committed to fighting. Using genetic traits to come out against diversity seems a bit Teutonic but I guess thanks Obama...
kerowo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 10:13 AM   #17
saw7988
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
saw7988's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,266
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Just throwing your hands up and calling him sexist is the exact problem I'm talking about. I commend him for laying out his points in a very dispassionate, objective, and rational manner.

I do disagree with much of his memo though, as I said, so my response would not be to call him a sexist pig and kick him to the curb, but rather I think it's better to refute his argument point by point with your own series of dispassionate, objective, and rational points.
saw7988 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 10:17 AM   #18
Larry Legend
Isaiah GOAT
 
Larry Legend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Let's go celtics
Posts: 40,991
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Yea I would avoud calling him a sexist, and would instead call him an idiot.
Larry Legend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 10:22 AM   #19
kerowo
lolcat
 
kerowo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,986
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Why are hesitating to call him a sexist? He is using fairly ridiculous claims denegrate the entire gender. What more would he have had to do to clearly be sexist to you guys? And who has an opinion on Tableau vs MS Power BI as a Shiny replacement?
kerowo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 11:36 AM   #20
saw7988
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
saw7988's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,266
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

I avoid calling him sexist because he comes across as not trying to denigrate but rather point out the differences that he sees is backed up by science. He clearly wants to have a well-thought out conversation about this topic, which he may have had with employees, but all the public left has done that I've seen (news headlines and kerowo) has just been to call him a sexist and move on.
saw7988 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 11:43 AM   #21
Victor
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Victor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 57,027
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by saw7988 View Post
Just throwing your hands up and calling him sexist is the exact problem I'm talking about. I commend him for laying out his points in a very dispassionate, objective, and rational manner.

I do disagree with much of his memo though, as I said, so my response would not be to call him a sexist pig and kick him to the curb, but rather I think it's better to refute his argument point by point with your own series of dispassionate, objective, and rational points.
I really dont think his argument was very rational or logical. it is riddled with inconsistencies, conflicting ideas, and over generalizations.
Victor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 12:11 PM   #22
kerowo
lolcat
 
kerowo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,986
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by saw7988 View Post
I avoid calling him sexist because he comes across as not trying to denigrate but rather point out the differences that he sees is backed up by science. He clearly wants to have a well-thought out conversation about this topic, which he may have had with employees, but all the public left has done that I've seen (news headlines and kerowo) has just been to call him a sexist and move on.
You assume I know no more about this than you do, which is probably wrong. I don't think the science he sites is as clear as you make it out to be, and regardless, there is a huge difference between saying men are stronger than women and every man is stronger than every woman, which is what is implying by trying to set policy based on traits.
kerowo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 12:41 PM   #23
saw7988
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
saw7988's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 11,266
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victor View Post
I really dont think his argument was very rational or logical. it is riddled with inconsistencies, conflicting ideas, and over generalizations.
I agree. I'm not saying he's correct, just that he's trying to have an honest conversation. I don't think he's misleading because he believes men are superior or anything like that, he just doesn't understand the science. So he should be corrected instead of denigrated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
You assume I know no more about this than you do, which is probably wrong. I don't think the science he sites is as clear as you make it out to be
I agree - same response as above. I haven't implied anything about the science being clear and who's right/wrong. I keep thinking I don't have to include the disclaimers about how I disagree with the guy anymore, but it seems I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kerowo View Post
regardless, there is a huge difference between saying men are stronger than women and every man is stronger than every woman, which is what is implying by trying to set policy based on traits.
I agree with this as well. I think the author of the memo is actually trying to REDUCE gender-based policy, not have more of it. He complains multiple times that there are avenues and resources for women and other minorities not available to him.
saw7988 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 12:47 PM   #24
kerowo
lolcat
 
kerowo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 32,986
Re: Google gender discrimination thing thread

Lol, they are only being made available because white males didn't need them to get where they are. He's arguing for the status quo which is how we ended up with a mono-culture in the first place.
kerowo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2017, 12:48 PM   #25
Victor
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Victor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 57,027
Re: ** UnhandledExceptionEventHandler :: OFFICIAL LC / CHATTER THREAD **

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Legend View Post
I have a lot of thoughts on the subject.

It's very hard to generalize large groups of people, especially groups as large as "men" and "women" but while we are doing it, I think "women" are likely better then men when it comes to having biological traits that make for effective employees and leaders, in virtually every field.

I think the next 200 years are going to see a major shift in women's leadership globally, and I think it will be a major positive compared to history.
I just think it is wrong to judge individual people on the basis of their broader distinctions such as race, ethnicity, country, age and gender.

100s of millions of women are certainly capable of being leaders. likewise men. they should be chosen based on what they can provide.

that some study or a bunch of studies showed that women "on average, have more Neuroticism" absolutely should not be something that is taken into account forcing women to overcome another obstacle.
Victor is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online