Poker has gradually changed since the poker boom landscape. Hold'em has become tougher, and you need to know more about hold'em to play well. Though it's not the days of the poker boom, poker is still alive and well, and you can potentially earn far more than IT. Although for many these are dreams that cost money to chase. You have to be intelligent, motivated, and disciplined to succeed in either. Basically, the character traits that will help you in computer science will also help you in IT. Though it is more important to keep a temperament in poker than IT. And, there is of course cross-over. The rabbit hole for poker, IT, or both is as deep as you want to go given your faculties to explore.

The only reason to choose poker over IT is the potential upside, so OP's assumption that "pay is equal" does not make sense.

the pay is not near equal when considering ability. average programmer makes a nice living. average poker player is bankrupt.

I probably opined on this before but the other thing is that playing poker professionally has to be terrible for your social/emotional development/well-being. There's something to be said about working with other people toward a common goal. Also, from an economic standpoint, in the long run, unless you're exceptionally good at extracting value, you make money by being useful to somebody else. Good poker playing skills aren't useful to anyone - just about no one would pay for that, you're just temporarily finding suckers who could very easily find another place to lose money. Programming skills are useful to just about every company medium-sized or larger in nearly every industry. Also the survivorship bias is very strong when you talk to professional poker players because any large group of current professional players has on average been somewhat lucky - anyone who hit a truly rough patch is like to have left the game. Same with medical, psychological issues, etc - the true median lifetime outcome is probably much worse than it seems by looking at people who are still profitably grinding because people drop out all the time.

I'll gladly challenge your perspective on poker playing, because it's one I thought about speaking with older people while I was younger. I've found this view to be common sense gone comply awry.

Recreation is not a waste of time. This is my first and main point. Billions are spent on recreation. Billions are spent on sports, movies, music, and yes, the game industry. Like it or not the gaming industry has its place in society, and it has proven this by establishing itself as a gambling industry. There aren't many developed countries that flat-out ban gambling, and are remotely successful doing so. In fact, I can't think of one, not one. Gambling is part of how civilized people behave.

Good poker playiing skills are useful to people. In the same respect, slot machines are useful to people, and this is why a slot machine has its place in casinos. Nobody forces anyone to play a slot machine. Nobody forces anyone to play poker. But they do so, because it's all recreation.

I don't want to live in a civilization where all the brains have to be slaved to medium-sized companies for their analytical talents. As a civilized person, my only obligation is to resist the kind of tyranny that would impose these kinds of values on civilized people, including this gentle conservative shaming. If I want to play a slot machine, I'll play a slot machine. If I want to work for a desk in a mid-sized company, then I'll apply. But it simply is not so that suckers (as you call them, I prefer "amateurs") are better off with one less choice about how to spend their recreation, which is what you are suggesting. I feel like these conservative values that you are talking about quickly become a ball-and-chain for young people as was my experience. It is not the American way of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

The gaming industry is not a waste of time. Slots, black jack tables, craps tables, horse betting, or heck even alcohol, non of these things are a waste of time. And, for the same reasons, neither is poker. It is only appears to be a waste of time from someone who would claim to have an objective standpoint on how the market ought to function, or that the market is wasting time, which is absurd.

A programmer is not somehow a better person than a professional poker player, nor is a poker player somehow better than a programmer. And a poker professional is not better person than an amateur at poker who makes money in stocks, and visa-versa.

This is all the specialization of labor. It is simply not true that someone who plays poker well would be better served, and better serve society while shackled to a mid-sized company with prejudices against "vice" and "recreation".

And me, personally, I am *damn* proud to be part of a counter-culture. This whole, "You outta do this." And, "You outta do that." the mainstream culture is too obedient for my taste.

Just because you say things repeatedly, doesn't make it true. I'm not here to say you're wrong but I was mildly interested in reading what points you had to support your claims.

How is it useful?

Lots of bold statements but nothing to support it. Let me help you. Try answering this question. How does it benefit society? What does it create?

Your challenge is too thin for my taste.

Does a slot machine detract from society? Or is it good for society?

It creates amusement and stimulation. Are crosswords a waste of time? What do they create?

The gaming industry is multi-billion, btw. And traded on the stock exchange. Is the whole industry just unproductive and traders would be better off twiddling their thumbs?

And this whole dream of playing poker, clearly nobody wants that, except the entrepreneurs that lead online poker named it PokerStars. Should we just shut it down?

Society already believes gaming is good for society, so the onus belongs to the vice squad.

Pro poker players are just like "pro" slots deriving profit. Should we ban slots?

And to add, this analogy between "pro" and "slot machine" is more apt than it may first appear. In fact, in Vegas there is a new crop of Texas Hold'em slots that function with AI (not to mention the Draw Poker slot games). Many people find it more interesting to play against "pros" because they also get to play against "amateurs", but more so because they are able to interact and "play" with their environment in a way that is more stimulating, in a game that is more stimulating. And, in poker, there's always going to be someone who's in the top 5%, and be able to consistently remain there in the local game.

My question would be if one were to say slots were social (as the market believes it is, which is intrinsically social), and "pros" are not, then why do all these people prefer poker over slots? And if slots are not social, is there this billion dollar industry based on unproductivity? Doesn't that just seem like a massive contradiction?

*** Poker AI Slot Machine Linkies ***

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...holdem-895984/
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/08/ma...-computer.html

Now, I can get not wanting to be a traveling walking talking socialable slot machine as a career choice, which you know, perhaps someone can come-up with a better analogy, because it doesn't sound like a lot of fun that way, but it's the strongest analogy I can come-up with. And, slot machines are plenty productive, imo, especially ones that know how to travel.

I hope that fleshes out my arguments on this a little more, and clarifies my thoughts.

I agree withe leavesofliberty's thesis in that people should be free to pursue whatever they like in life as long as it does not impede or interfere negatively with other people's pursuits (i.e. crime, intentional sabatoge, fraud, etc).

I do however disagree leaves that your argument about economic production equates to usefulness in or benefit to society. It's like arguing that cigarettes are a net benefit to society because the tobacco industry is worth billions.

However if you account for other factors such as healthcare, lost productivity, etc you would find that society as a whole probably would have been better off without it. So basically I think your argument doesn't factor in everything and just picks the factors that support your claim.

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The skills needed to be a poker player translates well to a lot of areas including psychology, data analysis, economics, etc.

Changing my board name to butt-head, lol. Thanks for your comment, btw.

And, tobacco is perfectly groovy as far as I'm concerned though there are alternatives.

Regardless, to play poker, you should emulate Kinish rather than Mike McDee. If you prefer McDee over Kinish, you're a dreamer, and while being a dreamer doesn't make you a loser, it sure as hell helps.

I don't personally use tobacco but I have tried it in the past and never really did anything for me. I am cool with people using it as long as I don't get second hand.

Agree about Kinnish haha.

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At the table, there's lots of chew going on. I think they both solve a simple problem, nervousness, and a lot of people are subconsciously nervous about something and play poker to ease it off a bit, which then translates into mild addiction not unlike tobacco. I also have not dipped, etc.

I am no expert at psychology, and perhaps I should stop there, but think of this... how many overweight people play poker? I'd say it's above average for sure. How many people chew gum, shuffle their chips, click obsessively on their phone? Perhaps all of this is subconscious nervous behavior. Also, sports betting, towards the end of a sports bet, you become more and more nervous, and then you handle the release (be it outrage or euphoria).

tl;dr thread, but Rusty is completely right. From the early posts I read, listen to this guy 100%.

IMO, IT pays better, is more stable, and easier to "beat" (lower entry AND easier to become proficient career-wise). DM me with questions or career advice. I was a mid-stakes grinder -> psych masters -> IT and wish I was IT from minute one.

Does anyone do a mix of IT contract jobs, poker, IT contract, etc?
Or possibly IT FT job (18-24 months) poker grind 3-12 months then back to IT FT Job?

I feel like being away from IT for too long and/or too often will make you rusty and not allow you to get to the level you want.

Why not poker for ~10-20 hours a week after work and on weekends?

Same in poker or any other skill. If you're not moving forward, you're moving backward.

Same problem in poker.

I know "data science" is a pretty broad term and the career path is not always clear, but does anyone have any advice on how to get going with this? Is the job market still good? I know it was hot a few years ago. I'm not at all up to date with it now, however. I'd be starting at the bottom wrt learning. No programming languages under my belt, no SQL, etc. Nothing. I majored in stats. That's about it. Definitely analytical too but have no accolades and such to prove that. I was kind of discouraged about a career in DS thinking you need to have a PhD in math, years of experience in software development, etc. I don't know if those skill sets are more for senior DS jobs or for all of them. I'd be happy with any EL job though.

There's a data science thread / blog here: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...65/index2.html

Thank you. That thread was very informative.

Is there anyone who has played poker for a living (as their sole or main source of income) and that has also been in IT at a different point, and actually preferred poker over a career in IT? I've heard lots of stories the other way around.

As you maybe see with my post below, I've also dabbled in both. Over the years I've withdrawn in excess of (net) £20k from Poker and I also had dreams of being an online pro. But £20k is not really a lot considering I've been playing for 15 years and sometimes 6-10 tabling for hours at a time. While poker is not my main income source I have devoted many hours to it.

The Poker train has left the station. I'm finding the game more difficult than ever. Things that took me years to work out on my own can be learned in a 20 minute video. I was 3 betting with a wider range long before my opponents knew you could do it with not just the nuts. Now everyone is doing it, even the bad players. Other things like shove spots can now be tweaked with calculators, I got good at it by trial and error and doing it many, many times. Many other things can be learned in a training video that doesn't take much time to watch. Site's are squeezing whatever remains from the game, 10 years ago 10% was the norm across the board, now 20% at micro stakes makes it impossible for bad players to progress.

I'd say get yourself a 9-5 job to pay the bills and use poker as a profitable hobby. Learn to code on the sidelines and find a problem and create a solution. You can use that solution to either make yourself some money or sell yourself if you plan on working for someone. As I say Poker and Coding is not my main income source but I plan on Coding to make me much more in 15 years than poker has made me over the past 15.

I just wish I never gave up on coding as a kid. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.