Thank you Rusty. Some good info there.

What is the reason behind that? To my knowledge from a few years ago, front end was more or less for web designers, whereas the "developers/engineers" handled the back end. I could be wrong but that was my impression.


This is what I suspected as well.

That sounds logical enough. The educational path I've begun is geared toward web development. Do you think that's a good starting point, or in your view is there a better (more strategic) path to go down when starting from scratch?

Mostly it's due to increases in network efficiency and javascript performance. It's not so much that javascript has replaced tradtional (server-based) web apps as it is that javascript apps have replaced programs you used to run on your desktop. So a lot of things that used to not really be web-dev jobs sort of became web-dev jobs.

Networks becoming faster or more available in general means that it's more feasible to have all the code running on the FE and making API calls to a backend, where the older model was "the FE makes one call to the backend, which does all the work and returns a buttload of stuff"

Most of the web stuff I've worked on recently has pretty simple backend APIs with more complex logic in the front end. Single-page apps double down on this philosophy.


I have known a lot of web devs with big gaps in their programming knowledge, because they were not called on to do certain things. This is even more true for javascript-centric developers because literally their whole life is spent in the browser.

It's difficult for me to tell whether those gaps are "big problems" or not, people tend to over-estimate the importance of what they know how to do.

(Credentials: went to a "top" bootcamp, working at large company for 19 months, web dev but been moving more towards backend in the last few months. I try to keep up somewhat on current status of bootcamps and self-learning.)

Freecodecamp, perhaps mixed with Odin Project, seem like the best way to learn to code that I'm aware of. The distinction between web and other types of programming is not that important at this point in your development. Web and/or Android/iOS ("they say" Android is in demand) in fact are likely better to focus on as a quicker path to your first job. You should definitely still learn the backend stuff, the theory, algorithms & data structures, SQL, etc., but being able to get some flashy projects on your GitHub are probably what will get you hired faster.

Once you have that first job, you can start thinking more about other types of programming. Hopefully you get a job that will allow you to grow and try different things, but if not you just keep learning on your own.

Basically, when you see people on some comment thread who argue against bootcamps or self-taught coders with something like "you're only going to learn one language and framework, and you'll be sunk once the industry shifts", it's absolute ridiculous nonsense. If you can code you can code, and once you're proficient you can likely learn most new things relatively quickly. Always be improving.

Good info from both of you. These are the exact nuances I was clueless about. Very helpful. Tyvm.

Starting from the ground up, does it take about as long to get an entry level job in Network Security as it does in development? Both fields are appealing to me. I'd tend to choose the one which is the hottest or has the best future. Getting get my foot in the door quickest is nice too, but it's secondary. I really like (and need) the structure of sites such as Odin and Freecodecamp. They do a great job of mapping things out for you. Keep in mind as a total beginner it's really easy to feel lost as to what the next step is.

Where can one gain enough experience as a Network Security specialist to get an entry level job? I know they offer formal courses at physical schools, but is that the only route if you are not a total computer geek/self taught hacker (something I am not, and wouldn't even begin to know how to be lol).

I work for a network security company. Most of our security researchers seem, to me, like self-taught guys but I guess I don't actually know. We don't really hire anyone junior in that field but I am sure there are places that do. But also, for every researcher we have, we probably have 10 developers... We also have several data scientists, IT, devops, etc, etc.

We have hired a few young people as devs who wanted to get into security research instead but I have never actually seen that transition happen, which is not to say it doesn't.

I am in IT and have held various IT security and non-security roles at non-tech companies. Imho the barrier to entry level to both is probably pretty similar but as far as making a career out of it and advancing in the field development would be faster with less overhead in terms of time and cost.

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Have any of you had any experience in both fields? If so could you tell me which you prefer and why? Or if you happen to know which field has a higher overall job satisfaction rating? Which is more stressful? More frustrating? More rewarding (psychologically, notn monetarily)?

I wouldn't know how to rate stuff like that. I do infosec related programming, but I am not a network security engineer or researcher

Two strangers on a forum are not going to be able to answer these questions for you and if so it would only be anecdotal.

Also bot fields are so broad it's hard to say. If you want to get into game development I have heard it's pretty grueling and in the other hand if you want to work in security for a non-tech company you can make pretty great money and have great work life balance, but that's like comparing apples to kumquats. So what you actually want to do in those fields will influence our answers as well.

Oh god do NOT get a job as a game developer

Start watching Adult Swim, and play WOW while editing textures in a photo suite, with a 20oz drink from the nearby gas station before you go into game development to be sure if it is right for you. Otherwise, not meant to be.

Wow, you sounded legit until this part

Oh and to answer the OP... get into tech if that's your thing.

Haha, this sounds good to a lot of people. I think the bigger problem with game development is the poor treatment, lower pay than other programming jobs, and 50-100 hour weeks.

Yes and no. I used to be very biased about this too myself but I've seen very smart people come out of these boot camps. The problem is just because you "graduate" from bootcamp it doesn't mean you would be a good engineer.

I was going to do the bootcamp thing to restart my career and I was like, "Why why should I do that, there are innumerable programming projects I can engage in from my garage, build a library of books, read them all and save $5000." I didn't pull the trigger.

In the USA, poker makes the same and this can include online also (in USA), and there is a possibility to get better. In IT, you would be working as micro support or in micro sales, and the salary is on the low side. The only good side in micro sales is that it might open doors to working in other countries. But it is a good backup profession for a mental gamer.

Then of course, one might think of college and go further, but picking the right type of IT, one needs to know that in coding it is a never ending learning of new languages and things, while some areas might be so popular that it is hard to get in, like media, I suppose, or there is the more general webmaster possibility. Then, with a college degree, you could work with servers, and other stuffs.

The programmers' salaries can be good after 20 years of experience of the old and later current languages when no one else masters them, but other than that the IT salaries are nothing special (after taxes, and college/university time). Java, SQL, whatever is in most need (most used currently).

nty

yup. the forced direction of bootcamps is very worthwhile for ppl who may not be struggle with getting started and direction. that doesnt sound right. I mean, plenty of hard working and motivated ppl just need the structure and direction and motivation that a bootcamp can provide.

ya, its expensive. and ofc you can learn it on your own. but will you? I messed around with it for years and never got anywhere. would study for a week or do some web tutorial and even took college courses. it was useless.

bootcamp puts it all together and does so efficiently.

and then there the advantages it gives for getting a job too.

I can relate. My (vicious) cycle is as follows:

Self study for about a week. Start to feel like a loser for not making any $$. Go back to poker and grind for 1-2 weeks. Realize why I was motivated to seek a career outside of poker to begin with. Back to self-studying.

Repeat.

If I was only a balanced enough person to play X hours of poker a day, and do Y hours of self-studying, that would be optimal. But I can't seem to do that. Once I start a poker session, I'm in total poker mode and I can't flip the switch off til I get burnt out. It's too bad too cause the free online sources are such great value. But yeah, I may have to breakdown and pay for a bootcamp too. Sucks.

I am in a similar boat. I am thinking eCommerce currently, get my shop going, and come back to serious gambling, and then I'll have the time to code whatever the hell I want without working for the man. The cubicle is no picnic either.

Of course. I never said otherwise, and I'd be hesitant to hire or refer bootcamp graduates without putting them through the ringer first.

I was speaking only to the silly idea I've heard that somehow bootcamp grads will not be capable of learning any language/framework other than the one they've learned in bootcamp.

We should just get together and build something.

Any ideas?

I looked into the local bootcamp here but feel like I am far ahead of them ... The first 4 weeks is CSS ... Wtf? ..but they claim last two classes got jobs...