Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Programming Discussions about computer programming

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-02-2017, 12:58 AM   #101
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

Poker has gradually changed since the poker boom landscape. Hold'em has become tougher, and you need to know more about hold'em to play well. Though it's not the days of the poker boom, poker is still alive and well, and you can potentially earn far more than IT. Although for many these are dreams that cost money to chase. You have to be intelligent, motivated, and disciplined to succeed in either. Basically, the character traits that will help you in computer science will also help you in IT. Though it is more important to keep a temperament in poker than IT. And, there is of course cross-over. The rabbit hole for poker, IT, or both is as deep as you want to go given your faculties to explore.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2017, 06:56 AM   #102
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

The only reason to choose poker over IT is the potential upside, so OP's assumption that "pay is equal" does not make sense.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2017, 09:11 AM   #103
Victor
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Victor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 57,034
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

the pay is not near equal when considering ability. average programmer makes a nice living. average poker player is bankrupt.
Victor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2017, 11:20 AM   #104
candybar
old hand
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,616
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

I probably opined on this before but the other thing is that playing poker professionally has to be terrible for your social/emotional development/well-being. There's something to be said about working with other people toward a common goal. Also, from an economic standpoint, in the long run, unless you're exceptionally good at extracting value, you make money by being useful to somebody else. Good poker playing skills aren't useful to anyone - just about no one would pay for that, you're just temporarily finding suckers who could very easily find another place to lose money. Programming skills are useful to just about every company medium-sized or larger in nearly every industry. Also the survivorship bias is very strong when you talk to professional poker players because any large group of current professional players has on average been somewhat lucky - anyone who hit a truly rough patch is like to have left the game. Same with medical, psychological issues, etc - the true median lifetime outcome is probably much worse than it seems by looking at people who are still profitably grinding because people drop out all the time.
candybar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-07-2017, 11:12 PM   #105
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

I'll gladly challenge your perspective on poker playing, because it's one I thought about speaking with older people while I was younger. I've found this view to be common sense gone comply awry.

Recreation is not a waste of time. This is my first and main point. Billions are spent on recreation. Billions are spent on sports, movies, music, and yes, the game industry. Like it or not the gaming industry has its place in society, and it has proven this by establishing itself as a gambling industry. There aren't many developed countries that flat-out ban gambling, and are remotely successful doing so. In fact, I can't think of one, not one. Gambling is part of how civilized people behave.

Good poker playiing skills are useful to people. In the same respect, slot machines are useful to people, and this is why a slot machine has its place in casinos. Nobody forces anyone to play a slot machine. Nobody forces anyone to play poker. But they do so, because it's all recreation.

I don't want to live in a civilization where all the brains have to be slaved to medium-sized companies for their analytical talents. As a civilized person, my only obligation is to resist the kind of tyranny that would impose these kinds of values on civilized people, including this gentle conservative shaming. If I want to play a slot machine, I'll play a slot machine. If I want to work for a desk in a mid-sized company, then I'll apply. But it simply is not so that suckers (as you call them, I prefer "amateurs") are better off with one less choice about how to spend their recreation, which is what you are suggesting. I feel like these conservative values that you are talking about quickly become a ball-and-chain for young people as was my experience. It is not the American way of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

The gaming industry is not a waste of time. Slots, black jack tables, craps tables, horse betting, or heck even alcohol, non of these things are a waste of time. And, for the same reasons, neither is poker. It is only appears to be a waste of time from someone who would claim to have an objective standpoint on how the market ought to function, or that the market is wasting time, which is absurd.

A programmer is not somehow a better person than a professional poker player, nor is a poker player somehow better than a programmer. And a poker professional is not better person than an amateur at poker who makes money in stocks, and visa-versa.

This is all the specialization of labor. It is simply not true that someone who plays poker well would be better served, and better serve society while shackled to a mid-sized company with prejudices against "vice" and "recreation".

And me, personally, I am *damn* proud to be part of a counter-culture. This whole, "You outta do this." And, "You outta do that." the mainstream culture is too obedient for my taste.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2017, 01:55 AM   #106
Ankimo
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 1,949
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

Just because you say things repeatedly, doesn't make it true. I'm not here to say you're wrong but I was mildly interested in reading what points you had to support your claims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
I'll gladly challenge your perspective on poker playing, because it's one I thought about speaking with older people while I was younger. I've found this view to be common sense gone comply awry.

Recreation is not a waste of time. This is my first and main point. Billions are spent on recreation. Billions are spent on sports, movies, music, and yes, the game industry. Like it or not the gaming industry has its place in society, and it has proven this by establishing itself as a gambling industry. There aren't many developed countries that flat-out ban gambling, and are remotely successful doing so. In fact, I can't think of one, not one. Gambling is part of how civilized people behave.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
Good poker playiing skills are useful to people. In the same respect, slot machines are useful to people, and this is why a slot machine has its place in casinos. Nobody forces anyone to play a slot machine. Nobody forces anyone to play poker. But they do so, because it's all recreation.
How is it useful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
The gaming industry is not a waste of time. Slots, black jack tables, craps tables, horse betting, or heck even alcohol, non of these things are a waste of time. And, for the same reasons, neither is poker. It is only appears to be a waste of time from someone who would claim to have an objective standpoint on how the market ought to function, or that the market is wasting time, which is absurd.
Lots of bold statements but nothing to support it. Let me help you. Try answering this question. How does it benefit society? What does it create?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
A programmer is not somehow a better person than a professional poker player, nor is a poker player somehow better than a programmer. And a poker professional is not better person than an amateur at poker who makes money in stocks, and visa-versa.

This is all the specialization of labor. It is simply not true that someone who plays poker well would be better served, and better serve society while shackled to a mid-sized company with prejudices against "vice" and "recreation".

And me, personally, I am *damn* proud to be part of a counter-culture. This whole, "You outta do this." And, "You outta do that." the mainstream culture is too obedient for my taste.
Your challenge is too thin for my taste.
Ankimo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2017, 01:58 AM   #107
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

Does a slot machine detract from society? Or is it good for society?
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2017, 02:00 AM   #108
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ankimo View Post
Lots of bold statements but nothing to support it. Let me help you. Try answering this question. How does it benefit society? What does it create?
It creates amusement and stimulation. Are crosswords a waste of time? What do they create?

The gaming industry is multi-billion, btw. And traded on the stock exchange. Is the whole industry just unproductive and traders would be better off twiddling their thumbs?

And this whole dream of playing poker, clearly nobody wants that, except the entrepreneurs that lead online poker named it PokerStars. Should we just shut it down?

Society already believes gaming is good for society, so the onus belongs to the vice squad.

Pro poker players are just like "pro" slots deriving profit. Should we ban slots?

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 07-08-2017 at 02:08 AM.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2017, 02:37 AM   #109
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

And to add, this analogy between "pro" and "slot machine" is more apt than it may first appear. In fact, in Vegas there is a new crop of Texas Hold'em slots that function with AI (not to mention the Draw Poker slot games). Many people find it more interesting to play against "pros" because they also get to play against "amateurs", but more so because they are able to interact and "play" with their environment in a way that is more stimulating, in a game that is more stimulating. And, in poker, there's always going to be someone who's in the top 5%, and be able to consistently remain there in the local game.

My question would be if one were to say slots were social (as the market believes it is, which is intrinsically social), and "pros" are not, then why do all these people prefer poker over slots? And if slots are not social, is there this billion dollar industry based on unproductivity? Doesn't that just seem like a massive contradiction?

*** Poker AI Slot Machine Linkies ***

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...holdem-895984/
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/08/ma...-computer.html

Now, I can get not wanting to be a traveling walking talking socialable slot machine as a career choice, which you know, perhaps someone can come-up with a better analogy, because it doesn't sound like a lot of fun that way, but it's the strongest analogy I can come-up with. And, slot machines are plenty productive, imo, especially ones that know how to travel.

I hope that fleshes out my arguments on this a little more, and clarifies my thoughts.

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 07-08-2017 at 02:46 AM.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2017, 11:08 AM   #110
just_grindin
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,258
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

I agree withe leavesofliberty's thesis in that people should be free to pursue whatever they like in life as long as it does not impede or interfere negatively with other people's pursuits (i.e. crime, intentional sabatoge, fraud, etc).

I do however disagree leaves that your argument about economic production equates to usefulness in or benefit to society. It's like arguing that cigarettes are a net benefit to society because the tobacco industry is worth billions.

However if you account for other factors such as healthcare, lost productivity, etc you would find that society as a whole probably would have been better off without it. So basically I think your argument doesn't factor in everything and just picks the factors that support your claim.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk
just_grindin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2017, 11:14 AM   #111
just_grindin
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,258
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ankimo View Post
How is it useful?
The skills needed to be a poker player translates well to a lot of areas including psychology, data analysis, economics, etc.
just_grindin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2017, 07:13 PM   #112
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

Changing my board name to butt-head, lol. Thanks for your comment, btw.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2017, 10:07 PM   #113
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

And, tobacco is perfectly groovy as far as I'm concerned though there are alternatives.

Regardless, to play poker, you should emulate Kinish rather than Mike McDee. If you prefer McDee over Kinish, you're a dreamer, and while being a dreamer doesn't make you a loser, it sure as hell helps.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2017, 08:37 AM   #114
just_grindin
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 4,258
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by leavesofliberty View Post
And, tobacco is perfectly groovy as far as I'm concerned though there are alternatives.

Regardless, to play poker, you should emulate Kinish rather than Mike McDee. If you prefer McDee over Kinish, you're a dreamer, and while being a dreamer doesn't make you a loser, it sure as hell helps.
I don't personally use tobacco but I have tried it in the past and never really did anything for me. I am cool with people using it as long as I don't get second hand.

Agree about Kinnish haha.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk
just_grindin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2017, 09:06 AM   #115
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by just_grindin View Post
I don't personally use tobacco but I have tried it in the past and never really did anything for me. I am cool with people using it as long as I don't get second hand.

Agree about Kinnish haha.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk
At the table, there's lots of chew going on. I think they both solve a simple problem, nervousness, and a lot of people are subconsciously nervous about something and play poker to ease it off a bit, which then translates into mild addiction not unlike tobacco. I also have not dipped, etc.

I am no expert at psychology, and perhaps I should stop there, but think of this... how many overweight people play poker? I'd say it's above average for sure. How many people chew gum, shuffle their chips, click obsessively on their phone? Perhaps all of this is subconscious nervous behavior. Also, sports betting, towards the end of a sports bet, you become more and more nervous, and then you handle the release (be it outrage or euphoria).

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 07-12-2017 at 09:12 AM.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-16-2017, 10:05 PM   #116
StarkNaked
old hand
 
StarkNaked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 1,206
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

tl;dr thread, but Rusty is completely right. From the early posts I read, listen to this guy 100%.

IMO, IT pays better, is more stable, and easier to "beat" (lower entry AND easier to become proficient career-wise). DM me with questions or career advice. I was a mid-stakes grinder -> psych masters -> IT and wish I was IT from minute one.
StarkNaked is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-19-2017, 11:30 PM   #117
tercet
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
tercet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: thall
Posts: 7,169
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

Does anyone do a mix of IT contract jobs, poker, IT contract, etc?
Or possibly IT FT job (18-24 months) poker grind 3-12 months then back to IT FT Job?

Last edited by tercet; 07-19-2017 at 11:38 PM.
tercet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-22-2017, 06:00 PM   #118
BRpokah
veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,066
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tercet View Post
Does anyone do a mix of IT contract jobs, poker, IT contract, etc?
Or possibly IT FT job (18-24 months) poker grind 3-12 months then back to IT FT Job?
I feel like being away from IT for too long and/or too often will make you rusty and not allow you to get to the level you want.

Why not poker for ~10-20 hours a week after work and on weekends?
BRpokah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2017, 08:36 AM   #119
Jeff W
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 9,484
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRpokah View Post
I feel like being away from IT for too long and/or too often will make you rusty and not allow you to get to the level you want.
Same in poker or any other skill. If you're not moving forward, you're moving backward.
Jeff W is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-23-2017, 08:55 AM   #120
leavesofliberty
Pooh-Bah
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 5,736
Re: Career: Poker or IT?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRpokah View Post
I feel like being away from IT for too long and/or too often will make you rusty and not allow you to get to the level you want.

Why not poker for ~10-20 hours a week after work and on weekends?
Same problem in poker.
leavesofliberty is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:36 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2010, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online